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SwingOrama Forum: Site suggestions anybody?: Archives: Local lead inflicts shoulder injury

By Shaolin Monkey (Yedancer) on Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 07:00 pm: Edit

For those of you who know my beautiful wife Michelle and wonder why she hasn't been out dancing lately, let me explain. She just started physical therapy to fix a very painful shoulder injury. Medication and exercizes did not solve the problem; we hope the therapy will. If it does not, we may have to resort to surgery.

You might be wondering how she managed to injure her shoulder. As the title of this thread suggests, a local lead twisted it the wrong way in a workshop. The results were not immediately noticeable, but the damage was done.

I don't want to scare any newcomers. But I do want local leads to be aware that even the simplest moves can be very dangerous if not done correctly. If you are doing something new in a class or workshop, don't assume you have the move down as soon as you see the teachers do it. When the teachers are talking, LISTEN. Don't go off on your own and practice UNTIL THEY TELL YOU TO! Too many times I see newer leads off doing their own thing without listening to the important information the teacher is imparting. HOW FOOLISH! It was just such an attitude that hurt my wife.

Experienced dancers may make it look easy, but that's because they've practiced a lot. Please, watch how you dance! My wife has been unable to come out regularly for almost 4 months now, and will probably not be able to dance for a few more until her shoulder heals completely.

Remember, just because it feels good to you doesn't mean you're doing it right! And chances are, the follows aren't going to tell you you're doing it wrong unless you ask.

If I sound irritated, it's because I am. I love to dance with my wife, and haven't been able to for what seems like an eternity.

So please, be careful when you dance. I know for a fact that my wife's case is not an isolated incident. In an energetic partner dance like Lindy Hop, you must excersize caution: I'm sure you don't want to be responsible for hurting someone else.

By Nachoman (Nachoman) on Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 09:33 pm: Edit

That's too bad about your wife, hopefully her therapy will be successful and she'll be back on the dance floor soon.

Generally speaking about workshops and social dancing however, while Yedancer emphacises that leads should ask a follow how it feels, I would suggest that follows should not even hesitate to tell leads when something tweaks them the wrong way. when it comes to things regarding pain or personal injury, a follow should not wait for a lead to ask her how he is doing it, she should be chiming in as soon as possible. I emphacize this also applies to social dancing. While in a social dance most teachers stress not to spew advice unless solicited, painful things the lead might be doing should always be brought up no matter what situation you are in.

But I also agree that leads should be constantly asking a follow how his lead is feeling, not only to see if anything was painful to her, but to just get general feedback about tension, etc. which will make the workshop more beneficial anyways.

By Rhonda (Rhonda) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 09:05 am: Edit

I agree! I think that some guys dislike me because I am so verbal. I have been hurt before on the dance floor. I never want to make a lead feel badly, but I also think that it's important to let them know when they are dancing too rough. I may just say "ouch" (mostly because it comes out before I know I've said it) and usually the rest of the dance was great. But please leads: Stop being so sensitive, as you can see we need to vocalize when we are being hurt by you.

By Banquo (Banquo) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 01:59 pm: Edit

Wow, sorry about your wife's shoulder injury. I hope she has a complete and speedy recovery.

First off, as a lead if i ever do anything to hurt you when I dance with you, TELL ME! Slap me or something, anything to communicate that I've done something bad. On the social floor I have a tendency to try things that for some reason or another (usually me ;p) don't work out, but more often than not I'll abort the move mid-stride to avoid any pain on either of our parts. I'd rather say, "That didn't quite work out the way I thought it would" rather than, "Oh my god! Are you okay?" The problem with that though is that I KNOW when the move is turning out wrong and I am not about to force it through it's progression.

In a workshop type atmosphere, I think that follows really need to speak up if a lead isn't quite doing something right. I know when I'm in a workshop and I see a follow do the same sequence perfectly with every other lead but when she get to me she asks the instructor, "I don't think I'm quite getting it..." I know she's trying to point out I'm doing something wrong but pointing it out to the instructor and myself in a polite way not to embarass me in front of the class. I say this only to point out that there are ways for follows to speak up with out making the lead over sensitive to getting critiqued.

Now on the topic of sensitive leads: I think that some leads are sensitive because it's hard to be a beginner in a scene, especially a scene where many of the follows are great dancers like SD. I'm still very itimidated by many follows out there because A. They are amazing dancers, B. Incredibly attractive and C. I feel like I'm wasting their valuable dance time because I'm not good enough or something like that.

This is just me but probably because the scene I started out in wasn't very inclusive, very clique oriented. it made it hard for me to approach follows and ask them to dance, resigning to sit back and watch in awe of how good some dancers were. This is something that still effects me today as a lead, so if I don't ask you to dance more than likely it's because I'm scared of you. Once I dance with you a couple times I'll feel more comfortable asking you to dance, also you'll find that I never turn down a dance if you approach me since I'm not the one doing the asking.

By Shaolin Monkey (Yedancer) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 06:49 pm: Edit

"This is something that still effects me today as a lead, so if I don't ask you to dance more than likely it's because I'm scared of you. Once I dance with you a couple times I'll feel more comfortable asking you to dance, also you'll find that I never turn down a dance if you approach me since I'm not the one doing the asking."

Same here!

And I also agree that follows should definitely say something if they were hurt or uncomfortable. NOT saying anything is only letting that lead go on to hurt others. If worse comes to worse, and you REALLY don't feel like saying something to the person, you can always go to a teacher or organizer and tell them of the problem. They can then approach the 'offender' if needed.

By charlie marks (Chasomatic) on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 09:58 am: Edit

The nicest thing any follow any follow ever said to me was "I can tell you are really taking care of me when you lead". This made me feel great because I'm a new dancer (2 years) and I don't want to hurt anyone.
What bothered me was the implication that all leads don't do this.
I've had one serious injury on the dance floor (before Lindy) and I couldn't dance for 8 months. Michelle I hope you feel better soon, because I know how it feels to be watching while others dance.

By Sherri (Badkitty) on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 02:29 pm: Edit

I assume that guys who don't ask me to dance don't WANT to dance with me. Hmmm, ever notice me standing around a lot? That's why. So please ask me to dance because even though I may be a bad kitty I am also shy.

I hope you recover as quickly as you can, Michelle! I really miss seeing your cool style on the dance floor. I hope you come out to keep us company, anyway - we'll give you shoulder rubs!

By Lindyhoppers Kick People (Tearshedding) on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 02:45 pm: Edit

I always wondered why Michelle never comes out dancing or why when she does come out, she's lounging. So, that is a crying shame that some bastard lead hurt her shoulder ( I hope it wasn't me)
I tend to dance with the philosophy that anything I lead has to flow with the follows frame. If a follows frame doesn't particularly like going a certain way, then i'm not going to force (pull or be more forceful with my lead) the follow to go through that move. Maybe that's why I don't tend to do tricky moves and why I have a relatively light lead. So leads, treat your follows with care, they are very delicate... they may kick you in the groin if you don't.

On the other hand. If girls haven't noticed yet, guys have a particularly fragile ego. So when you ladies decide its time to tell a lead that they are bastardizing the dance, be very wary and step around their ego's with the tenderest care. There have been countless times through this year i've learned the lindy hop, where a stray comment here from a well-meaning follow almost made me giveup this dance. But it was the compliments and encouragement that kept me coming back. So, when deciding to tell a lead if he's doing something painful or wrong... with the leads you think are cute and want to come back, be nice about it... with the creepy old dudes who give you the "you look maaaarrvelous" look, be as blunt as you want.
So in conclusion. Leads, don't be baboons. Women, men are shallow and have porcelain egos.

By Shaolin Monkey (Yedancer) on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 06:12 pm: Edit

Oh, don't give us that wus emo crap, David.

Heh heh. Just kidding.

By Lindyhoppers Kick People (Tearshedding) on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 06:15 pm: Edit

Hey watch it nerd-boy. Where does my emoness manifest in that statement anyways. Hey you know what I find equally amusing... the fact that you posted this in "news" instead of "lindy hop" hahahahah... good stuff.

By Ron (Ron) on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 08:59 pm: Edit

You know, I've been thinking about what Rhonda said and re-reading it. I think Michelle has been seriously injured and I think Jeremy's words of caution and advice are good ones. One thing I got out of it was that in a workshop people should be really careful trying new things and not rush, and to be oh-so-careful of the follow. Every lead reading this is wondering "which workshop?" and "I hope it wasn't me!"

But I'm not sure Rhonda's complaints are the same. If a follow, as Rhonda did to me, (and I'm not the only one, I've heard), tells me I'm making her arm sore and I'm doing the same normal stuff I've done forever that no one else has an issue with, I don't know what to think. Maybe it IS my fault. I just have no idea how. The safest thing is to avoid dancing with her. Either way, she's safe from my injurious dancing behavior, and I'm safe from her complaints. I guess that IS being sensitive, but as David points out, we have fragile egos.

By Jane Hance (Janeh) on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 11:01 am: Edit

I have a bad shoulder. I was injured a year ago while dancing with a bozo. Since then I won't dance with some people, I alert others to my injury, and during some dances I simply drop the connection or deliberatley ignore a lead into a particular move. There are some people I dance with that I spend the whole dance protecting my shoulder.
As for workshops, learning new stuff in that format will always have great potential for injury since neither person really has time to learn how to be in control of what's happening. I also think that instructors frequently have us work the new stuff at-speed too soon to be danced safely with partners we may not be comfortable with. That's one reason some people like to stay with the partner they came with and not-rotate when taking workshops.

As for general dancing:
#1 Guys, NO muscle is required!!! If you have to muscle the move, don't attempt it!
Other than that: When leading, choose your patterns/movements based on HOW (not how well, but HOW) your partner is following. Some movements just don't work smoothly with some follows, and not-smooth can translate to discomfort or injury for you and/or your partner. And it really doesn't matter if it's your lead or their follow that's causing the problem. My experience has been that if I lead something that is uncomfortable,jerky, or awkward for me, it's twice as nasty for my follow.
As a follow, the unfortunate fact is that a lot of guys have THEIR STUFF they lead and it doesn't much matter who's following or what the music is. There are many out there who's leads can be described as strong and/or jerkey and/or awkward a lot of the time. And like Ron said, if only one person complains, the leader will assume it's the follow's problem and just not dance with her anymore. And if we all complain, the leader may quit dancing altogether. The problem is which partners will accept your input/critique and try to make changes and who will just blow you off? Or even worse, list you on the forum like Ron just did to Rhonda?

By Krista (Melbamoose) on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 12:01 pm: Edit

So, instead of trying to take her comments as genuine and trying to better yourself, you're just going to avoid ever dancing with her, Ron??

By no pony-tail (Rich) on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 02:37 pm: Edit

Injuries.

In my kung-fu class BEFORE we drill, spar, push-hands, etc. we TELL our partner our current injuries AND what ACTIONS are off limits (e.g. No sweeps, no arm-bars, etc...) get the idea?

By Ron (Ron) on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 04:49 pm: Edit

The thing is, I have no idea how to make it "better", and from what other follows tell me, I don't think I have a problem. (If anyone does have any input on any injury-threatening leading that I may do, feel free to give it to me next time you see me.) Not that I can't become a better lead in general, I certainly can.

And don't get me wrong, I think follows should tell leads when they are hurting them or risking them. I don't think they should grin and bear it. Leads with problems need to get the message some way.

By Sherri (Badkitty) on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Nothing like dancing in fear of injury. Dance is supposed to be a release!

Rich has a great point. No hurt feelings if we inform each other of our needs before the dance begins.

By the way, I met a lead (who will remain unnamed) who is an orthopaedist. I thought he was trying to build his practice by the way he wrenched my shoulder. ;-)

By Andy (Hitman) on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 05:08 pm: Edit

Follows, just make the distinction between risk of injury and personal preference.

If a lead does something that hurts, let him know...

if he does something within the realm of normal but its not quite to your personal preference, should probably keep it to yourself unless you know the person well.

a follow on this board gave me some unsolicited feedback on her preference after she initiated our first ever dance together. I haven't danced with her since and have no plans of asking.

Everyone has their preferences and they vary from person to person. There are follows that feel so good to me, but not to other leads... and vice versa.

With that said, if something hurts, speak up.

By Jane Hance (Janeh) on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 05:26 pm: Edit

If someone complains about your leading (or following), first thing is to have them be specific. Then go ask someone you trust to critique your dancing in reguards to that complaint.
I once asked a dancer in our lindy community (who's leading style I enjoy and whom I wanted to dance with more often) to please give me some advice on how I could improve my follow. We danced a couple of dances and he gave me 2 really clearly stated suggestions that I was able to immediately implement with great results. Notice I said he offered TWO suggestions. He was not overly critical AND he complitmented me on several things that he felt I did really well. That was a great learning experience.

By Rhonda (Rhonda) on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 09:05 pm: Edit

Ron, I don't really know what I did to you to make you want to openly insult me. But I make no apologies for speaking up on the dance floor. Just because no one else has ever told you anything about your dancing doesn't mean that you dance perfectly. Maybe I had hurt my shoulder prior to dancing with you and your "normal stuff" was still too rough for me at that time. Whatever the case (and I really don't remember), there's no need to bad-mouth me. I certainly would rather you didn't dance with me than to have a serious injury because I'm too scared to be honest.

By Susan Bondi & Dany Martinez (Lsd) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 05:56 pm: Edit

I've been reading this thread with interest. I've noticed that as we progress as leads and follows in our dancing, a lot of times we get lazy with the basics. I know I did, and going back and really working and concentrating on them has helped me become a better follow. As a follow, some of the first basic things I was taught were to feel the connection with my partner and to be sensitive to his lead through that connection. And also be able to adjust to your partner depending on their level and style. I think a lead needs to have the same sensitivity in these areas because after all, you are in overall control of the dance. And just so we're not harping on all the leads, there a lot of new dancers in our scene. If you are dancing with a follow who isn't as advanced as you, maybe try to curb your moves a little. She may not be able to follow everything you are trying to lead and this can also result in injury. And maybe as follows, we can critque a new lead if the ask us to. After all, we all had to start somewhere.

By Amy (Blueangel) on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 08:43 pm: Edit

So Andy that's why you don't dance with me anymore - damn it! Guess I gotta keep my big mouth shut.

J/K

Ron since you pointed out Rhonda - I am gonna say this with as much lindy love as possible. Do you take note if a follow turns you down?

Any lead or follow should think about their own dancing if they've been refused to a dance.

I know for sure that I say no to guys, AFTER I've tried to tell them that what they were trying to do with my body wasn't working for me.

I agree with LSD (haha love the name) about maybe changing the game if you're dancing with a lead or follow from a different level of lindy. Its so easy for follows to back lead the new guys and to also intimidate them with fancy footwork - same with the leads & new follows.

Oh and one last thing - I hope Rhonda and Jane & I always speak up when the guy (or girl) is hurting us. Us girls should complain when guys do unsolicited boob swipes... why wouldn't we say "ouch" when you step on our foot or force a quick stop.????

By Andy (Hitman) on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 12:48 pm: Edit

he he Amy.. naw, it's mostly the fact that the drive to the Firehouse is a little long for me (mmmm about 485 miles). I know some will call me lazy for not making the drive...

By Krista (Melbamoose) on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 01:42 pm: Edit

lazy

By Andy (Hitman) on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 03:37 pm: Edit

ba duuhhh bump

how are you anyway?
still in school working that ass?
oops, I mean workin' your ass off?

By Amy (Blueangel) on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 04:58 pm: Edit

What ass... didn't you see the other thread on my butt? hahaha

I'm um suppossed to be flying this week - IF the winds stop..as I write that, I look up and not a breeze moving a leaf.

Are you coming to Lindy Prom in May???

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