Archive through February 29, 2000

---

SwingOrama Forum: Music: General: Ideal Swing Tempos: Archive through February 29, 2000

---

By Ron on Friday, August 06, 1999 - 02:55 pm: Edit

To respond to: By Dennis Hong (Dennis) on Friday, August 6, 1999 - 09:16 am: .... Ron, by no means is 190 bmp "superfast." I understand that you guys are trying to cater to a certain crowd. But what is the harm of throwing in the occasional fast song? Don't you think it gets kind of boring when EVERY freaking song is the exact same tempo? Personally, I feel that BTO, for example, plays a very good mix of tempos that makes everyone happy. Now, I'm not saying that every other song should be fast, or even what YOU would consider fast. But when you make it a point to "avoid playing anything superfast", I think you're really limiting yourself here. Keep in mind that my gripe isn't slower songs. I like dancing to slow songs. I just don't like dancing to songs that are the same tempo, one after another. And I know others agree with me on this one, and NOT just LA style dancers. Just a thought.

By Ron on Friday, August 06, 1999 - 04:54 pm: Edit

I do try to mix up the tempos when I DJ. (It is Meeshi who is more anti-fast song than I.) But I don't want to drive people off the dancefloor by playing frantically fast stuff anything more than rarely. I've heard various complaints about the DJ at the Rocket, and particularly that one who filled in for a while. And I've heard complaints about BTO playing too many fast songs too. Everybody probably has a different opinion. Anyway, here's how I see it (using songs that most of us are familiar with as examples...): Comatose: 0 to 60 BPM Way too slow. I don't play this range of tempos. Slow: 60 to 109 BPM Good for getting close and groovin'. Examples: BTO's "Minnie the Moocher" at 105. BBVD's Minnie at 90. Swing-outs look and feel too slow-mo to do more than a couple in songs even at the higher tempo. I definitely play songs in this range occasionally, they are fun. Medium: 110-149 BPM Great for Lindy. Examples: BTO's "Big Time Operator" at 125. Ella's "I'm Beginning to See the Light" at 115. Indigo Swing's "My Baby Comes Round.." and "Today's the Day" and "How Lucky can One Guy Be?" at 125-130. Mighty Blue Kings "Buzz Buzz Buzz" at 135. Benny Goodman's "Jersey Bounce" at 135. Maxine Sullivan's "Massachusetts" at 145. This is my favorite tempo to dance to, it gives me time to plan a lead and time for both of us to style. I play songs in this tempo a lot. This is Meeshi's favorite range, too. But the low end of this tempo is hard for beginners to dance to, and this range in general might strike most casual listeners as slow. And I agree that playing too many songs in a row in this range is boring, it brings down the energy. But that aside, its still my favorite. Fast: 150 to 179 BPM. Also great for Lindy. Examples: BTO's or Calloways "Are you Hep to the Jive?" at 155. or "Calloway Boogie" at 165/170. Indigo Swing's "Another Day in LA" at 155. Or their "Blue Suit Boogie" at 175. Lavay Smith's "Oo Papa Do" at 165. The beginning part to "Bei Mir Bist Du Schon" (Swing kids soundtrack) at 150/85/190. High energy tunes. I like to play plenty of songs in this range, but not back-to-back. The Hollywooders would probably prefer more at this tempo. Very Fast: over 180 BPM Cooking. Examples: Swing Kid's soundtrack "Sing Sing Sing" at 210 or so. CPD's "Zoot Suit Riot" at 180. Prima's "Jump Jive & Wail" at 200. BBVD's "Jump with my Baby" at 180. Bill Elliot's "Mildred" at 200. These are often jam songs or performance songs. I personally usually don't dance to songs at this tempo. Call me lazy, but I think they are a perfect opportunity to go for water. I've tried to avoid playing songs at this tempo, but maybe we should throw in a few. (except the overplayed first 4 examples above!) What do people think? See the neat writeup by the Toronto swingers on this subject: http://dancing.org/music.guidelines.html Here's two excerpts from that site: "We like a variety of tempos. Our core range is 120-180 bpm. We like to warm up and cool down. We don't like breakneck tempos at the outset, nor at the end. If you play something slower than 105 bpm or faster than 195 bpm, it had better be outrageously good ..." "So, here is an intuitive illustration of tempo. Suppose you take a step on every beat. Normal walking tempo is 120 bpm (SLOW). If you're walking really fast, so that you could also run at the same speed, that's 150 bpm (MEDIUM). If you're really running, but not running for your life, that's 180 bpm (FAST). Running for your life is above 200 bpm!"

By Bomp the fast music dancing bafoon on Friday, August 06, 1999 - 11:31 pm: Edit

I about craped my pants laughing so hard! Ron, I feel sorry for you. Realy, I do. Try 250-300 BPM being fast. Oh man, I know some people are too old or whatever, but look at Hal Takier (or will you, considering he is an old timer Hollywood Styler?!). Hal is well into his 80's and dances faster then you ever will. And its not because you can't. Its because he likes fast music. If you spend more time in deeply fast, GOOD, AUTHENTIC swing music from the mid thirties (yes thats right, the 1930's) you will not only become a better dancer, but a faster one too. Just an opinion. I can still give them on here can't I???

By Ron on Saturday, August 07, 1999 - 12:54 pm: Edit

sure, but it looks like only your spelling has improved, not your tact... Ah, I love listening to the Hollywood styler brag about their superior fast dancing. Whatever you say. Oh, and are Basie, Ellington, & Goodman GOOD and AUTHENTIC enough for you? I do enjoy their CDs. They do have quite a few songs above 180, but just a couple above 250 that I can find. I also have a couple collections, one Big Band Dance CD average was about 145 BPM. I'll stick with my category ranges and preferences, thank you.

By Bomp the usless poster boy on Sunday, August 08, 1999 - 08:55 pm: Edit

All I was saying is what you find fast may stem from what you listen to. If you listen to nothing but average tempo to slow jazzy stuff, you will find what I find to be not so fast, realy fast. And that sucks because there a TON of GREAT songs from the 30's that no one can dance to, mainly because they dont think they can ever be able to. I wasn't bragging about being able to dance faster then you. I did say Hal Takier, an 80 year old, can cut a rug faster then you ever will. Not to rub your nose in it, just to show you that it isnt about the person, so much as it is about the music. Hal dances fast because he loves fast music. It is the only kind he likes to dance to. Oh yeah, bag on my lack of tact......again. Leave it up to an uptight Pseudo Savoyer to get personal and include silly coments about ones spelling skills (or lack there of). Once you convince yourself that 180 BPM is not very fast, you will have reached a new level in dancing. Until then, keep looking foward to all those jams to "Sing Sing Sing" because it is the fastest thing you can think to jam to. P.S. Look for Goodman, Basie, and Ellington prior to 1936...that is unless it is out of your category range or preferences. Jeez.....

By Swiveler on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 06:57 am: Edit

Well, I thought I'd add my two cents. I will concur with Bomp on early Goodman, Basie and Ellington. The 50's stuff is too jazzy and be-bob to be good for lindy. If you'll remember the late 50's is when lindy turned into West Coast and East Coast. Music IS the dance and your movements are dictated by those notes. I do think that by dancing to the 30's and 40's swing music your body will interpret it much like they did in the era. If you're dancing to 50's Basie your body will interpret the music that way. Both are good, but lindy WAS created in the late 20's, early 30's and perfected in the 40's and goes best with that music. Don't you think? I would love to hear of more people getting into and expanding their music horizons to include more the the classic old stuff and branch out into stuff like Western Big Band. As well as branch out into other swing era dances like Balboa Swing and Collegiate Shag! You know I think it's all good, I just feel that people should study the basics and the origins of something before moving past it. (I'm not saying this is you, I'm just making a general statement). I'll take the 150 and over beat interspersed with the 110-149!!!

By Ron on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 07:21 am: Edit

I like LISTENING to very fast (180+) swing music, I just find it boring and draining to DANCE to it. I'll leave it to you and Hal. Oh, and about that problem with almost crapping your pants? You might want to have Mom dig out the diaper bag again... hmmm, do they make vintage Huggies? Also, I might have spoken too soon on the spelling.. try "crapping" and "really" and "comments". Notice the double letters. I guess they haven't covered double-letter words in your grade yet. OOops, I guess that was personal. But I couldn't resist! ...feel free to make fun of my creaking old bones ... lord knows, I do.

By Regina on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 07:27 am: Edit

Three words for my Hollywood/LA Style coherts in the way of tempos.... "clang, clang, clang"

By Ron on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 07:32 am: Edit

Tammy- I agree, the 50's stuff did get too jazzy and be-boppy and dance to. I like the CDs of 30/40's bands recorded in the 50's doing their classic stuff. So you get the Hi-Fi and stereo, but the classic sound. Like Goodman's "Hi-Fi" album, or the Big 18. Plenty of fast stuff on there, but lots of moderate tempo stuff, too. And some of the newer bands doing the big band style are great, like Bill Elliot. I particularly recommend Pete Jacobs and His Wartime Review, "Shall we Dance?" CD, with some old and new stuff, but with the authentic sound. And a good mix of tempos, since he also dances, and chose the songs for dancing.

By Dennis Hong on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 07:47 am: Edit

"Clang clang clang"?!? Dammit, Regina, I thought I told you to stop talking about my privates, MARRIED woman!!!

By Regina on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 08:05 am: Edit

HAHAHAHAHA!!! I'm sorry. For a moment I forgot that I only swivel like THAT for my husband :) And I am going to be so good and not even use the word "Jewel"!!! At least, not in this post!!!

By Regina on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 08:17 am: Edit

By the way, I didn't think that I mentioned my preferred tempo. I like 150+ My fave songs to dance to include Eddie Reed's version of "Boogie Blues" and "Meet Me in Uptown" by the Mighty Blue Kings and I adore BTO's version of "Devil in the Deep Blue Sea"!!! I am kind of biased about dancing to Lavay's "Blue Skies" cause I was in the video but 150+ is IDEAL!!! Anything slower than that, I have a really hard time with. It's so funny cause in San Francisco, when a slow song somes on, all the lindy hoppers rush the floor. They love that 110+ Although, I love dancing to that 50s jump blues stuff. My fave all time song to dance to is "Rockin' Robin"!!! I just can't understand what the big deal is. I mean, you should be playing a good mix of all of this stuff. I prefer the older stuff, myself but a nice mix is always welcome.

By Andy on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 10:22 am: Edit

Well, since there is no universally accepted manual on exactly what speed you switch from "fast" to "super fast", we'll have to just say.. it's personal opinion. We are all going to have our own idea about what's fast and what's not. Period. So, no sense bickering about it. As far as tempos at the Marriott, I think Ron and Meeshi mix up tempos and music periods quite well. Plus, if you don't think they are playing enough fast stuff, make a request.. they'll play it! (ps Thanks, Ron, for playing Carmen's "Exactly Like You") RE: Ron's comment "I love listening to the Hollywood styler brag about their superior fast dancing" Yeah, I've been noticing loads of comments coming from that camp (Tammy and Regina excluded), laced with disdain for folks who don't dance superfast (my definition of superfast is >214.5 bpm). Whereas, I don't hear folks from other style groups bitching (about anything really) Yes, it's hard to dance fast and look good, BUT it's equally as hard to dance slow and look good. It's hard to fill up the time with creative stuff that flows with the music. So, for those of y'all who think you're extra specially cool cause you can dance fast or dance slow.. try the other.. it may be humbling. After that: zip it, quit bitching, dance your style and your tempo, and have fun. ps. Jake, I know you don't like this forum... the style here just doesn't suit you. As we've talked before, the LA site works for you, man. I think until you adapt your style to work with this group of posters, everyone would be happier, including you, with you remaining an LA site poster. That's as nice as I can be.

By Regina on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 10:44 am: Edit

You mean that Hollywood style lindy hop is not the superior dance? Here I was all this time thinking that just cause I could dance fast that I was up for world domination ... gee, thanks Andy for ruining MY day!!! Just my luck ... oh well!!! Maybe I'll give up lindy hop for engineering. I was thinking maybe I can build a laser to put up in space to zap all the dancers who think they're the best dancers in the whole wide world and ruin it for those of us that do it for fun!!! Gee, that would be so adult like of me and I could reach the level of some other Hollywood dancers I have been hearing so much about!!! Maybe some day I'll be grown up enough to dance to songs at 300 bpm ... ooooooh, OH, I have a 5 year plan :)

By HiGees on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 11:25 am: Edit

I am curious as to what individuals are dancing when they're dancing to 250-300 bpm songs. Are they dancing lindy or are they doing shag and/or balboa? If they're dancing lindy, are they dancing lindy the entire song, or are they switching dances within the song.

By Regina on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 11:38 am: Edit

Unless you're ONE PARTICULAR PERSON, here in San Diego we don't dance to songs that fast. Thought that was made clear?!?! We're just too slow of a town to dance that fast ... I'm just going to mosey on over to that tree over there and take myself a siesta!!! --Engineer Reg

By Andy on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 11:42 am: Edit

Regina! Haa, that was hilarious! I almost craped in my pants when I read your coment, realy! Seriously, though, you're one of the coolest gals swingin today! You've always shown it's about having fun... hopefully that infectious groove will continue to spread. I'm bummed you're moving away, we're gonna miss you!

By Swiveler on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 11:43 am: Edit

250-300 what???? Even that would be too fast for Peter Loggins!!!! But to answer your question, when we dance fast we sometimes do a combo of Bal Swing and Lindy, although I prefer lindy. I don't mix shag with Lindy as much as I do straight Shag. Interstingly, Bernard of Hollywood (not Hollywood styler) hard core Savoyer, taught us Bal at Catalina in 95! Again, it depends on how much I've had to drink, how tired and I am and at this point, how pregnant!!! ;-)

By stopkickingme on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Hitman wrote: "Yeah, I've been noticing loads of comments coming from that camp (Tammy and Regina excluded), laced with disdain for folks who don't dance superfast (my definition of superfast is >214.5 bpm)." Well, I have to say, Andy, that I'm part of "that camp" (all 15 of us) too that was not included in your exclusions. It really bugs me when people make sweeping generalizations and only exclude one or two people because then it seems like everyone else is a complainer. I DO prefer to dance fast...the faster the better. I also enjoy dancing slower. But I have to agree with Jake...the more you practice dancing fast, the better you'll get at it.

By HiGees on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 02:01 pm: Edit

Regina, are you making fun of my compadre Slooow Poke? He'll get around to you after his siesta. Thanks you'll for the responses. Was just curious--since this "faster is better" arises periodically--whether folks were actually swinging out at 250+ for entire songs.

By Ron on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 02:40 pm: Edit

So what's the best tempo for the horizontal bop? Once again, I'd say a good mix of tempos. But remember, the more you practice doing it slow, the better you'll get at it. And the longer the song will last.

By Andy on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 03:05 pm: Edit

Ron, ha ha! Funny analogy! Lisa.. sorry, didn't mean to imply that everyone besides Tammy and Regina have the "self-exhalted" attitude. They are just regular posters, so I chose to explicitly state that they don't adopt the elitest attitude. And, of the regular posters on the LA, many of them have made the comments that look down upon people or style who don't dance super fast (whatever def of super fast you choose) I'd say it's more than 2, naw more than 4, naw, more than that that have made comments. I'll dig up a few. So, once again, sorry for leaving the impression that you are swept up in my generalization. I will still assert that I have not heard of anyone from any other style rip on another group's inferiority based on how fast or not-fast they dance.

By kickmetilithurts,baby on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 03:08 pm: Edit

Hey Andy, I have to agree with Lisa, and that was an unfair generalization that you made. I don't know what "camp" you consider me a part of, but I think I'm the only one who's been complaining lately, and that's only in response to Ron's middle-aged whining. {8^P> -Dennis

By Ian Campbell on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 03:49 pm: Edit

I didn't realize speed was such an issue, did I miss it, or did it get imported from the LA page? Personaly I never seen Jacob Lindy to 300 bpms, I've seen him shag to what I consider superfast, same with people in LA, so it seems to me that this conversation got on the wrong track, some where. Maybe I missed the post where it was stated that faster is better. I hope Andy wasn't tacking me into the snob group. Yes I have strong opinions about certain aspects of what swing is, but I have never MEANT to communicat elitism. While I personally don't do Meeshi's or Jon Costa's style, I've always enjoyed watching and hanging out with them and and their prodigees.

By Andy on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 04:13 pm: Edit

Hello!? Reread my retraction of the generalization.. My impressions of the speed issue, mainly stem from the LA site. Dennis's initiation of this thread left the impression, with many besides myself, that a LA/HW styler has a higher threshold of what to call fast, and bringing up the semantics involved a bit o' snobbery. Nothin against you, Dennis, you've always seemed a nice fellow... but some, including me, got that impression. Then, Jake added fuel to the fire. Dig around on the LA site, and you'll see many comments relating to speed, and the fact that LA stylers can dance fast, and "other" stylers can't. I've personally never heard Lisa, Julia, Ian, Nancy, Benno, Regina, Tammy, David, and others I may have forgotten, and don't claim to have heard them.. sorry again for the generalization. Ian.. I wasn't tacking you into the snob group. I did that a long time ago! ~8^) just kidding.. ha!

By Dennis Hong on Monday, August 09, 1999 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Hey Andy, Now I'm going to pass the blame onto the slow website.... I posted my last message before your retraction appeared. No hard feelings, then. At least, none on my part. In any case, my post (the one that got this whole thing started) was directed solely at Ron, because he HAS been complaining about the music being too fast, both on and off the message board. Most of the diatribe between Ron and I has been in jest, but I noticed a certain amount of seriousness in the tempo issue, and I felt compelled to put in an opposing viewpoint. And despite Jake's in-your-face posts, I think he does make some valid points. Okay, being serious sucks. I'm going to go back to making fun of people now. Neener neener neener.

By Anonymous on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 06:26 am: Edit

This is fun. I like thinking and talking about this stuff. It keeps me entertained at work. It also challenges my way of thinking and makes me wonder why I think the way I do about certain issues. Anyway, After our Flame class last night I got to thinking. One of the fellas had said something very curious. He said he didn't like the Hollywood style we were teaching, but enjoyed the steps and applied them to his Savoy style. I found this quite curious since we don't teach Hollywood at all on Mondays. We teach traditional lindy hop with no modern influence. Now, you're probably wondering what this has to do with tempo. Well, he was going on about the virtues of Savoy and bouncing and slower tempos, (not knowing David and I had danced and followed the teachings of Frankie, Steven and David D for three years prior). So, when I got home I pulled out my video collection and watched Frankie in Hellzapoppin. I've got to tell you guys, they are hauling ass and doing some serious whips. Not only were they hauling, but Frankie was smooth as glass. Now, we all agree Frankie IS Savoy, right? Then I watched Day at the Races. Again, I saw the same fast, smooth look to the dance. Even when doing Charleston I didn't see the slow bounce that everyone now associates with Savoy. Then, just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I put on clips from Harvest Moon. Again, they were hauling ass. I mean fast dancing and although not all of the contestants were as smooth as Whitey's Lindy Hoppers, they were much smoother than what I see being referred to as Savoy. Again, I think it has to do with tempo and music. The music you dance to forces style. Your body is an instruement that is played by the music. Does that sound too weird? So, my point, (sorry to make such a long one), is that perhaps the "Hollywood Stylers" don't feel "better" than others, perhaps just more authentically 30's 40's????? So, that could be the "snobbiness" that is misperceived??? Perhaps all the Savoyers out there could take a minute to rent Day at the Races or Hellzapoppin (Ken video has both) and see if they see what I see. Also, maybe try giving some fast 30's swing a chance?? BTW this is Tam posting, I couldn't get it to post unless I posted anonymously????

By Nancyanne on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 06:54 am: Edit

Yes Tammy I think also, what your point was pointing to and what others have pointed out is we who have followed Frankie have learned Frankie's style and tempo pace as a 70/80 year old man who just happens to enjoy dancing and teacing to a certain tempo at this point of his life...He certainly did dance to a different drummer when he was a youngster, and wow it was amazing to see his whips and smoothness in Hellzapopin, how else could he propel those girls and himself around with doubletime basics at that tempo. Hmmmm Tammy, I seem to be posting here alright.

By spinner on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 07:44 am: Edit

Hi Tammy, Your comments above sound something like what I said while I was dancing with you last night, but if it was me that you were talking about, we definitely had some miscommunication (this is Rick, BTW). Am I the person your post is refering to? If so, I'll send you a private e-mail clarifiying what I said. Of course, you may have been talking about someone else. One thing I know I didn't say was anything about the virtues of slow tempos. I definitely think of myself as more of a Savoy style person than Hollywood, but I like fast music. I requested to Meeshi a couple of times at the Marriot that they mix in more fast music. Nothing wrong with the slow stuff, I just like variety, and for my taste more fast music than slow would be better. I'm just stating my preference here. I'm not trying to say anyone should agree with me. BTW, I really enjoyed dancing with you last night. You guys have been getting really big crowds at the Flame the last couple of weeks. I think they have been the best nights I've seen there since I started going in April.

By Swiveler on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 07:56 am: Edit

Hi Rick, Yes and no. My "fella" I was referring to in my post in really an amalgamation of many people, leads and follows that I have spoken with. In fact, Linda and I were speaking last night about tempos as well. It's something that comes up a lot and people are always asking our opinions and such. Please do not think I was singling you out. I wasn't. I too, enjoyed our dance. I've been trying really hard to dance with people I don't dance with that often. I like the challenge and the differences! Thanks again!

By Ron on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 09:56 am: Edit

Dennis, you crack me up.. Tammy, everything else you said aside, I wonder about the dancing you see in the old movies. Isn't most of that at the high tempos? The flashy fast stuff is usually the stuff that gets performed and filmed, understandably so. What did Dean Collins & co.'s dancing look like during a 120 BPM song? Maybe he bounced like David Dalmo... OK, I doubt it.

By Swiveler on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 11:19 am: Edit

You know Ron, I was thinking about that. My answer is no. Here's what happened, the Dean Collins people are turned into West Coast Swingers. I've danced with people that were actual students of Dean's when Dean was old and they dance nothing like Dean in the 40's. I would say the other direction was that old Lindy hoppers became Jazz dancers. Norma Miller is an excellent example. She discovered Isadora Duncan/Martha Graham and modern Jazz dance and was quite successful at it. It forever changed her style of dance. Look at her lindy now, compared to her in Day at the Races. Now, the reason these dances changed was the music. The music dictacted the change. The Tempo, baby, the tempo!!!! In the 40's they wouldn't have lindy hopped to a 120 BPM song, they would have done a fox trot.

By keepkicking who? on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 11:45 am: Edit

the world revolves around people who think they are members of any "camp" that is criticized? not. we know andy is nice. why ever assume otherwise.

By Anonymous on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 11:48 am: Edit

With all this talk about camps... "And this one time at band camp...."

By Anonymous on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 11:57 am: Edit

How do camps form? Is anybody excluded from camps? Does putting "camp" in quotes make it a more special "camp"? Can I have my own 'camp'?

By Regina on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Something that always bugged me is the people who say that there are these people who are in cliques and that they snub everyone else. That they only dance with people who are in their clique and they ignore everyone else. Okay, let me ask something, when you go out, do you dance with your friends or strangers all night? Mostly, I dance with my friends and the people I know because they are that ... my friends who I love dancing with. Yeah, I dance with people I don't know but more often than not, I dance with my friends. I don't know if that puts me in a class with cliques but don't we all usually hang out with our camps? That just bugs me that I can't dance with my friends without being told that I am in a clique, or as some people have put it, camp!!! Pretty soon, we'll be discussing superior dances again. I am biased to polka swing, myself, just to let everyone know...

By Andy on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 12:23 pm: Edit

Ahhhh! man, let this be a lesson to choose words carefully on the net! I'm dreadfully sorry for using the word camp. Let me edit my original post: FROM: Yeah, I've been noticing loads of comments coming from that camp laced with disdain for folks who don't dance superfast TO: There have been several posts on the LA site by a few HW/LA style dancers which are laced with disdain for folks who don't dance superfast Forget I ever used the word "camp", I'll never utter or type that word again as long as I live. Dennis, I love you, man.

By Yehoodi&TheBlowfish on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 12:49 pm: Edit

Right back atcha', Andy. You seem to have a secret admirer in that Keepkicker fellow, though, whose comments appear to be a stab at me. Nevertheless, someone who feels validation by jumping to the defense of a perfectly capable person, and who has not the courage to sign their smack, deserves no response. I will say one thing, though. If you're going to mock someone's nickname, or mock someone's mocking of someone's nickname, try to be original. And sign your post. Otherwise, you're just a hostile wuss hiding under the cover of anonymity. -Dennis

By Yehoodle & The Blowhard on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 01:06 pm: Edit

hostile wuss. i like that.

By Ron on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Isn't this a fun thread? I just started another thread. I'm such a troublemaker.

By stopkickingme on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 05:38 pm: Edit

Actually Dennis, keepkicking...was a stab at me and I'm very offended by people who are too chicken to post an email address. I'm gonna cry now.

By stopkickingme on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Hey Andy...thanks for the apology in your multiple posts : )...Generalizations just bug me because there may be someone out there who doesn't know me and may assume that I'm a snob just because I do LA Style...Jeez...I'm a snob for other reasons! PS: Go ahead Swingerz...flame me you chicken!

By Bomp on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 07:34 pm: Edit

Tammy, your posts rule! I have always believed that about Frankie, Leon James, Snookey Beasley, Al Mims and many other dancers from Harlem. They are SMOOTH! Not far from the style Dean danced. A few differences, minor ones at that, make the two appear off from each other, but that is the magic of the dance. You should be able to tell who a dancer is trying to look like by looking at the waist down. Min and Corrina, two "Hollywood" stylers from today, look more to me like Whitey's lindy hoppers than most hard core "Savoy" dancers today. And thats not just because they are such great dancers. I wonder why more people out there with "Savoy Style" tee-shirts don't try to look like the greats of yesteryear... And Ron, Frankie really flipped my wig when I read a quote by him that said, "We danced lindy to songs like Bugle Call Rag", and that "the kids today are good, but man you should have seen the jitterbugs in the thirties." That excites me far more than anyone can understand. I want to prove him wrong and say that we can do just as good. It feels like a challenge. I want to make the original jitterbugs proud. In my opinion, there is no greater compliment on dancing than a compliment given by a jitterbug from the 30's-40's. I know you must disagree with me on that, but Im just talking personally. If someone says to me that I remind them of when they were a young dancer, I am shocked and amazed, truly. That is what I hope to achieve most in my dancing...

By Charlie Yi on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 08:50 am: Edit

Sorry kids, I've seen Frankie and Al Minns in Hellzapoppin' and I've seen the Groovie Movie. And I don't think they look very similar at all. And as for Al Minns having a whip. No. Nope. Sorry. If you've ever taken a private from Josie, David, or Jamie you would know why it looks like they have a whip. As for Min and Corina, they are sooooo good. But I still say TRHS are the closest to Hellzapoppin' that we're ever gonna see. Anybody at Catalina this year that saw David & Asa, Lennart & W, Ken & Helena, and Eddie & Eva would know. There is no doubt, TRHS rule!

By Ian Campbell on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 09:19 am: Edit

Charlie your right and wrong. Frankie and Dean look very different, but they are also very similar. If you watch or take classes from Ryan and Peter Logins, on the basic footwork level they are the same. As far as Al Mims not having a whip, you'll have to explain that too me. This isn't meant to be derogaory, but citing two hip-hop Lindy hoppers doesn't caryy weight with me, particulary when I have heard from Steven and Peter that he is whipping and the whips were just as common in the Savoy. Admittedly I am having a hard time addressing all points, but it seems to me that you are referencing dance steps (moves) whereas Tammy and I are referencing basics (swingouts/whips). I think this is like apples and oranges. Yes they look different, but until we look at the same point on film, we will just spin circles. So I propose a little get together where we can watch the same thing and then discuss, or we can drop the whole thing and challenge ourselves with our similarities and differences. Its so funny that a year ago nobody even new about this stuff, you either went to Johnny or the flame or Tio Leos.

By Ian (Ian) on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 09:39 am: Edit

One more thing, I think when making generalizations based on the LA site or LA scene... I am under the impression that many of the posters are under age (because of the numerous Memories references) Most of us, in SD, are adults. I think it is more to do with age than being a hollywood styler as far as ego or elitism goes.

By Charlie Yi on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 10:30 am: Edit

I took classes from Ryan. And Ryan suggested that if a girl tries to dance DC or Hollywood style on you, you should start leading her in mixed directions to avoid her leaning back on you. As for basic footwork level being the same, that's moot statement, because if the basic footwwork level wasn't the same then it wouldn't be Lindy now would it? As for Al Minns not Mims not having a whip I'll show you when I run into you. Or better yet come to the La Jolla Mariott this Sat. Night. Jamie, Elisha, Chris, Shawna, Susan, and I are doing a performance there. There I'll show you what I learned directly from Josie and David what they've learned from performing/studying with the TRHS (who were trained by Al Minns).

By stopkickingme on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 04:54 pm: Edit

I don't think you can actually say that TRHS trained with Al Minns. He passed away right after his first visit to Sweden. That's sort of like saying a dancer trained with Frankie when all they did was go to Catalina.

By Bompensiero on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 06:51 pm: Edit

Hey Charlie, call it a whip, a circle a slot, whatever. All I know is I find differences in EACH and EVERY dancer from back then, but also MANY similarities. I don't even like calling my style "Hollywood" style considering I have never taken a class eith Eric and Sylvia, the inventers of the term. And I wouldn't call my style "DC Swing" either, because I don't try and look like Dean. I try looking like Leon James at times, Walley Albright at times, Hal Takier at times, and even Arthur Walsh at times. So if you want you can call me Mr. Copy-Cat style guy or something. I dunno about the whole "Hollywood" and "Savoy" extreme style issue. Well, anyway, Im just restating stuff I've said over and over and over and over again...

By Mousie on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 10:08 pm: Edit

Charlie, It's not leaning back. It's an upright position! Just because we're not huntched forward doesn't mean we're leaning back.

By Mousie on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 10:11 pm: Edit

Ron, There's an old jitterbug from the 30's and 40's named Hal Takier, he's 86 freakin' years old, and he still dances to music over 180 bpm! Come on man!

By Ron on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 10:59 am: Edit

I already heard about Hal. Good for him! If Hal comes to somewhere I'm DJ-ing, I'll be sure to play a very fast song, just for him.

By Ron on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 11:26 am: Edit

Someone just told me that the DJ that filled in a while back at the Rocket was actually Jake! No wonder everyone was complaining about all the fast music! And no wonder he defends the fast music. I'm thinking the best mix might be (using the ranges I defined above): Slow (60-109 BPM): 5-7% Medium (110-149 BPM): 40-55% Fast (150-179 BPM): 35-50% Very Fast (>180 BPM): 5-10% Of course, it depends on the venue, the time of night, and the crowd. But heck, I'm just guessing, I'm no expert DJ. I've only DJ-ed a few times, and I made plenty of mistakes. I do really like the 130 to 165 BPM songs best, though.. I'd certainly play faster stuff for the kids at the Rocket, for example, or if there were a bunch of Hollywooders in the house, or if Hal was there. Wouldn't want to disappoint Hal!

By Mousie on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 12:58 pm: Edit

fast=180....PULLLLLEASE!

By Andy on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 01:08 pm: Edit

Yo Mousie... We've been thru this already! We know that we all have a different definition of what we consider to be fast, superfast, superduper_extrafast. Ron: fast > 180 Andy: fast > 214.5 Mousie: fast > ?? Just cause my definition of fast is higher than Ron's, doesn't mean I'm cool or cooler than Ron (if it did, i'd define fast as 1.6 million BPM) Though, Ron is cooler than me cause he has a bigger swing CD collection than I, but I'm working on it. so, Mousie, Let it GO!

By Regina on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 01:13 pm: Edit

It's not Mousie's fault ... Ron HAD to post it again!!! Which in turn, causes people to get all riled up about somthing most of us are over. Oh, but 170 is the best tempo to dance to (just a few parting shots in the style of Ron)

By Andy on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 01:42 pm: Edit

Yeah, but I think you're missing my point, which is.. he could post it a thousand times and you shouldn't get riled up about the definitions, cause they are HIS definitions... and there is no universally accepted definition that Ron is violating. Now, Mousie can put up his/her definitions (in a non-antagonistic way)... and we shouldn't get riled about that either. Even if Jake posted his (what am I getting into? ~8^) Now, I would get riled up if someone posted it a thousand times, cause my email would overflow!

By Ron on