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It seems to me that the San Diego Swing scene is not up to par as most other cities. It seems that most San Diego dancers are in it for the fad. Most guys go to the swing clubs with their wing tips and spectators, but the rest of the clothing just doesn't fit the shoe. The shoes gentlemen stick out like a sore thumb. The ladies, I have to say, are a but more classy. There are some men out there that look quite good on and off the dance floor. But the LA, SF, Chicago, NY, swing scenes, most people go out full vintage or look vintage. There are no adidas, nike, reebok, striped pants, sweats, baggy jeans. There are some but not like San Diego. Now there has been the argument about being comfortable in dancing, sure sure, I don't mind it if it's like for practice or anything, but in a social club with a Big Band like BTO or other bands from different areas of the country, why not try to dress the era to give an ambiance of nostalgia. The SD rockabilly crowd sure does fit that bill. It sort of brings me back to "Grease". Now to the issue of dance style. The style war between "Savoy" and "Hollywood" means no such thing. The labeled "savoy" was made becuase Frankie came out of retirement and was asked to teach by PBDA (Pasadena Ballroom Dance Association). Back when everybody was dancing the lindyhop/jitterbug. It was just plainly called the lindyhop/jitterbug. Nothing associated with Hollywood or Savoy. The old film clips of the jitterbug contests as well as the movies displayed how the lindyhop was danced. People nowadays just like to put a lot more syncopation steps (West Coast Swingers), jazzy moves, or a bit of a hip hop flare into the lindyhop to give more of variations in the movements of a simple tuck turn, spin, double spin, texas tommy, whatever. So nowadays a lot of people want to start dancing the lindyhop as it was danced in the movies. Many people have learned the dance in so many variations that it has confused them. All I can say is practice that lindy rhythm people. Just take the the Charleston and keep turning around on it. Many people are trying to dance like the old movies that it just bugs me when they try to practice on a social dance floor, ouch, ouch, ouch. Look if the dance ain't in you, then it just ain't in you. I suggest just move off the dance floor and give people who want to dance the space. The many "so-called moves" of the famous Rhythm Hotshots are cut and pasted from the good-old film clips, I know, I've asked Eddie and Lennart where they get their materials from. Eddie responded that they watch a lot of the old movies because they are inspired by it. That is why most of the time when they teach, it's mostly routine when both partners are in tune with each other. The one thing that most people must learn is the lindy rhythm, and from there, once the foundation has been established, then everything else will slide together smoothly or bouncily, whatever the music is telling the body to do. What I have seen and especially among beginners is that they are so consumed with moves and moves and moves, that they literally don't know what to do with the basis of the lindy rhythm. The many syncopation steps or stylings are from more experienced dancers that have been doing other dance techniques such as the sultry "west coast steps" or jazzy movements of modern dance (Meeshi and Margaret, and Emily are very well known for such steps). So IMHO, there's no such thing as slow style lindy as was exemplified in the recent MOS. It seemed to me more of an erotic dance where people can just throw dollars to the performers. The actual performance that was well suited for a good showcase was done by the Hollywood Jitterbugs, great job ladies and gorillas. When I watch and dance with Sylvia , Lisa, Alicia, Corrinna, Melissa, Holly and the many fabulous ladies of Los Angeles as well as ladies of San Diego Tammy, Lisa, Julia, Dinah (sp?) , and the ladies of San Francisco Angie, Terry, Judy, + many others, these lovely women don't try to take a lot of the free time on 1-2 7-8 to do a lot of fancy footwork that many of the women being taught at PBDA or other structured Dance Studios. The Best Thing to do is really work on that Lindy Rhythm and then build on it and try to play it along with the music. But remember that the "women" must shine on the dance floor. So to Shadow Charlie (aka Adidas), James Bennet, Andy (hitman), there is no such thing as Savoy style, only modern lindy and old-fashioned lindy. |
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Dude, unbunch your panties and go home.... |
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***disclaimer: Since I cannot "emote" while typing, I'll just say that this post is not to be taken as an angry one.*** Golly, you sure are swell mister.(cue sarcasm) First, since you can easily find out who we are I ask that you identify who you are and where you are from. Next, I would like to thank you for taking the time that you did to tell me everything that I already knew. Let me guess, you read one of my posts and are merely seeking to enlighten me. Guess what? I don't need it. I find it rather pompous of you to assume that I and others on this board would be so naieve to the intricacies of Lindy Hop. I would also refute your claim that there is only modern and old fashion lindy. I'm not refuting the validity of the claim, rather the all-inclusive nature of your statement. There are styles known as savoy and hollywood. To deny that would be assinine and extremely inaccurate. I fully agree that the basics are the same. Regardles, they are different stlyes and easily recognizable as such. Also, Sylvia and the various women that you mentioned style like mad-women. The difference is that they don't interrupt the flow. You must be proud of yourself, you showed us. To avoid any thought otherwise, let me say that I'm not mad in any way. I laughed when I read post. You must be a pre-school teacher or something. For future reference, you would be better suited posting at neoswing.com. There you could preach to tons of newbies and maybe pick up some friends also. People who would praise you as a guru, mentor, and parental type figure. Actually, now that I think about it, I wonder if you'd teach me again about that lindy rhythm. PLEASE???!!!! I REALLY WANNA LEARN FROM YOU!!!!! TEACH ME DAMN IT!!!!!....ummmm...hee hee....got a little carried away. |
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Joey, your second statement was that San Diegans are in it for the fad, and then you talk about the clothing?? You mean that if everyone started wearing vintage, it means they aren't treating it as a fad? Wow, my view is opposite. When I see people wearing the clothing of an activity, but not showing any expertise, then it looks to me like they are new, trying the latest new fad. The surfer-wannabes. The Japanese tourists decked out in their tri-color neon matching ski-suits on the bunny slopes. The new dancer all decked out in his zoot-suit or hat and suspenders, two-toned shoes, trying his Swing 1 moves for the 1st time. I think they look a bit silly. But the expert doesn't have to dress and act the role, they just do their thing. Its beyond a fad to them. If people want to dress vintage, fine, but its not an essential part of the scene, to me. The dance is the thing. I've noticed the casualness that San Diegans generally dress to go out swing dancing, and in general I like it, but I personally wouldn't wear a t-shirt to the Catamaran. And my experience with follows, is that, in general, the better they are, the more they like to play and throw in variations. For better or for worse, there are Lindy styles commonly labeled as "Savor" and "Hollywood" and if you prefer other labels, you are going to have to convince a lot of people... |
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I see Tofu that you have nothing better to do with you time for such an early post. I guess that is why you have so many grammatical errors in your little sarcastic paragraph. I travel around the country a lot and IMHO swing is a fad here in San Diego. Most of the guys dancing don't even listen to the music. MOst want to know moves, moves, moves, and more moves. Plus copy styles here and there of other great dancers such as Meeshi. Hey I've seen you dance Tofu and IMHO you need more help. |
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Oops, I goofed in that last post. P.S. oh yeah I don't think you will be able to learn much more Tofu, not until you get your basics down. Keep practicing man, but not on the social dance floor. "Tired of Being kicked" Joe |
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Hey Joey)(*&^%$, If your *&^%$ hurts go home. We don't need your @#%$&^%$ attitude here in San Diego. If you want to start bagging on someone's grammar, check your own post first, and proofread it. |
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Clearly, any two year old can use vulgarity. It takes far more brain power and cleverness to insult without such words. Nice demonstration of your shortcomings! |
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Mr. Joe the spineless schmoe....... Come ask me to dance, I'd love to check out your basics.......I can feel through where you have chosen to lead this discussion that you would be basically uninteresting. All of San Diego's leads are well traveled skilled jitterbuggers with the same base of Lindy Basics as you. The leads of San Diego and all the leads that I have danced with from around the world are kind, considerate, and humble. I'd love to check you out.......The Jitterbugging Satin perhaps? Don't include Meeshi, Julie, Lisa, Dina, or Tami's names as examples while insulting their dance partners and friends. |
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Hey Nancy, is that suppose to Jitterbuggin Satan? I believe so, I don't think I'm Satin. Was I ever insulting their Dance partners? Please do let me know who I was insulting. I was just observing the "bad" dancers, mainly leads, that I have encountered in the many cities I have danced in. I'm not really a native San Diegan, my partner and I just travel looking for the great opportunity to see what lindy hop is like around the USA. I might have to put San Diego as being the least Swinging town. Joe |
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You do that "Satin Satan" You sure are no Jitterbugger, and your partner is a fool to dance with you. Bye-Bye now |
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Joe- So where are you from? And when you are here, where do you go? |
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hee hee hee.....gramatical errors?? You poor pathetic silly boy. I'm glad that I struck a nerve. I noticed that you neglected to respond to most of my post. I wonder; Are you going to hide behind the internet forever? Are you going to use it as a haven to express your views because you lack the courage to do in the open? Do you have a problem standing by what you post? That's too bad. Which San Diego swing spot did you see me dancing at?? I'm glad that you chose to criticize my dancing. You're swell. Gosh, when you read some more nifty stuff that you can spout off as your own please come back and lecture me again. Yer th' bestest and stuff. Sincerely, James Bennett 909-340-6556 orghepcat@yahoo.com p.s. Let me know when you find some conviction and you'd like to speak as an adult rather than a child with an internet alias. |
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one other thing Joey, learn to write before you attempt grammatical correction. |
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To Tofu, I guess you're that infamous TofuBOB, what a stupid dorky screen name. You're probably just making some racial slurs against the asian people, hmmm. Why can't you come up with a better name than Tofu BOB. I don't see you dancing at all. None of the people that my partner and I hang around with ever mention your name. Wait, scratch that, my partner did mention dancing with some guy named James who just doesn't know how to lead at all. And don't try to make a sarcastic remarks about my partner because she has 12 years of dance experience, plus she has trained with very well-known instructors such as Buddy Schwimmer, Sylvia Sykes, and she and I have danced a lot around the LA area when we were in town, especially the Derby on Monday nights. She has danced with Peter, Russ, Ritchie... yu name it, she is a great follow. You're just a common wall flower just trying to get well known on the internet world as a great dancer (what a Greg). All you ever do with your time is post post post. I've read your stupid posts and I'm sick of it. Now you're giving your number away, probably it's a pager, hold on... Well low and behold, it is a PAGER? Dorkboy. Hope I never ever encounter your selfish character at any of the clubs. You just talk about yourself, yourself, yourself. Sincerely Joe Anywhere, USA Hometown: NY, NY |
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To Ron Bloom: Well I'm everywhere around the USA, plus I travel abroad a lot. My wife (partner) and I like to see what the swing world is a like around the USA, not much around the world because we are hardly near a city or town that had these entertainment facilities. Our hometown for at least 8 years is New York City, but my wife is a Californian, so that is why we are usually out there. We have seen the Carolina Shaggers and have learned a great many techniques from them that we try to fuse with our dancing. We've to Arizona, Texas, you name it, we have probably been there. When we are in your town, we usually try to catch whatver is going on at the Catamaran, Buffalo Joes, we did catch a dance at the Rocket, it's been a while though. Most of the time we go to Memories, Derby, Twin Palms, depends on who is playing. Sincerely Joe (and that is my real name, typical New Yorker) schmoe is just a play-on name. |
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james Bennett 2723 Mcallister Riverside, Ca 92503 909-354-8273 If you would re-read the posts you would realize that I never mentioned your partner. By the way, we perform with Buddy on a regular basis. I glad that you've chosen to take out your insecurities on me. Interesting how you find the time to go out and tell everyone out there that they're just in it for the fad. It's about fun. It's not about trying to convert the world to your way of thought. I'm sure that you'll respond with another tirade of unsubstantiated attacks aimed at making me feel really bad. Shucks. Darn. Ow. You've wounded me time and time again. Grow up. Bitch. p.s. Joe Schmoe.....probably a racial slur against white trash...hmmmm....bitch. |
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To Joe You say you have been so many places and claim to dance so well but I don't recognize your name at all. If your first name is Joe. Your style must have not been so great. I know most of the people in the swing scene. That's OK I understand your trying to make yourself feel like you are a dancer. Come here anytime and try to prove to us you can really dance and maybe oneday we will believe you can. |
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To Tofu*&#*$: You accuse me of hiding behind the internet, why don't you look at yourself first. You pathetic little worm. You have the gall to make fun of other dancers, but have no backing whatsoever. You think your dancing skills are better than anyone else's, that's probably why I don't see you dance at all. And anyways, Buddy has never ever mentioned you at all. No Joe Schmoe is not a racial slur against white trash dorkboy. Why don't you grow up for a change, you impudent little watchamacallit. Yes it is true,I admit, that I'm mostly attacking you because you just make me and probably others sick with all your stupid postings on the net. And what clubs do you dance in when you go to San Diego, eh? You have failed to answer your own question. Why do you stand up for those lazy ass fad dancers down in that little Seaside of a City? |
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To Red: I've never claimed that I dance so well, you're just trying to put words in my mouth. And you might your be that you are trying to defend that Tofu? How come your name is blocked out, hmmm don't want to give away your e-mail? Joe |
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Okay boys. Is this a joke? Surely you all can't be that immature. Look, if you can't play nice and make intelligent commentary, give it a rest. I love to debate with the best of them, but this has really sunken low. What are you hoping to accomplish. Define your points and present them and perhaps someone with take you seriously. Thank you |
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Joe, you've attacked me multiple times for things I've neither said nor done. I'm sorry that you've got all this pent up agression. You've marked yourself as a hypocrite. That's too bad. The p.s. in my last post was a mockery of yours. I'd like to apologize to Meeshi and Sean for posting on the board in this manner. It's not what the board was intended for and I'm sorry. Joe, feel free to email me. Perhaps we can discuss this a bit more civily. It's strange that this has gone the way of harsh words and personal attacks. I don't disagree with your views of dancing. I only disagree with your method of presentation. sincerely, jamie bennett orghepcat@yahoo.com |
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Well, this has certainly been entertaining in some sick Jerry Springer sort of way. I'm with Tam, debate is healthy, as long as it's done in some sort of positive manner. The positive vibe of the San Diego swing scene is something we all enjoy... let's keep it alive. Joe, have we met? You mentioned me in a previous post, but I can't place you. Where/when is the next time you'll be out dancing in San Diego? if you prefer not to publicize, you can mail me directly. andy_gooden@hp.com I will only give the info to the highest bidder... who'd like to start? ~8^) |
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This man's postings (joe) are reminiscent of a torqeumada (D.M.) that was posting before; same old "you people suck", pointless arguements, talking about learning the basics, and he seems to mention the same people all the time about how well he knows them and their dancing. If you actually knew all these people, they would certainly know you (and your make believe partner) Looks like a new facade for the same ignorant person. Oh yeah his other favorite thing to type.. "hmmmmmmm....." Will wonders never cease. This reminds me of a local billboard in San Diego for Rock 105.3, with the quote "your problem is obvious" |
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Amen! |
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Well I finally found the time to read though this whole mess. It's pretty funny, but Joe, you seem to have nothing to stand on at all. I know some of the San Diego dancers, and they are good people, and I know they like their forum to be mainly positive. So leave them alone, they never did anything to you! (Tofu is not from San Diego by the way, so it stands that no San Deigo person did anything to you.) I think that The Lindy Hoppers Forum on the other hand loves this type of stuff. If you (Joe) really think you are all that, try posting your ignorant comments on that board. They are sure to tear you a new asshole so you can have two heads up your ass. Yours and your wifes. They don't care how nasty a conversation gets, so I'm sure you will have fun. This way, you can leave the good people who run this nice, enjoyable, constructive forum alone, and at the same time get your "I need to trash talk about something I know nothing about" kicks. So, here is the address to the forum your type should be posting on: http://members.tripod.com/socalswing Thank you, thats is all. |
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Is it just me, or is this Joey Schmoey guy the biggest name dropper you have ever seen or what? |
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True, that San Diego dancers never DID anything to me, all I commented on was on their swing dancing. Especially the leads of San Diego, some are quite good, but most just focus on moves moves moves. They don't even listen to the phrasing of the music. The music is part of the dance, and should be interpreted clearly. What I see on the San Diego dance floor is what I expressed in my early comments. Then I get a lot of bashing from people who don't even live in San Diego, like Tofu, Reuben, and plus this peacemaker, I'm guessing. Hey even myself, I'm an out of towner, but like I said, all I commented on was the quality of dancing. I've commented on a lot of cities, like I said before I travel. So on my next visit to lovely San Diego, I hope that the dancing does get better so that it is enjoyable to watch. Not an eyesore. I didn't want this forum to sound like personal attacks on anyone, but the people like Tofu just got of hand with it. To Tofu and Reuben: Why don't you two go down to San Diego and see for yourselves what the dancers are like, I suggest that you go to Tio Leo's or the Catamaran, if you're old enough. That's were the most unfavorable looking dancers hang out. Joe |
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San Diegan's requirements to be friends with: Hopstar ---- 15 years old SDLHS ---- $25 Everybody else ---- Dress at Sportmart |
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Come away from the Dark Side Joe. It is your DESTINY!!!!(cue crescendo of cool music to evoke emotions of awe, wonderment, and anticipation) Use your knowledge of dance for good, not for bad. You must go forth throughout the multitudes and preach of goodwill and understanding to your brethren. Let them know that they too can be saved. You must not let the Dark side coerce you or lead you astray. Resist it Joe! YOU CAN DO IT!!!!! COME INTO THE LIGHT!!!!!! *******SPONSOR'S BLURB******************** THIS MESSAGE WAS SPONSORED IN PART BY THE ASSOCIATION OF STAR WARS QUOTING SILLY BOYS FOR THE FURTHERMENT OF DANCING AND SARCASM AS A CONTACT SPORT. WE CALL IT AOSWQSBFTFODASAACS FOR SHORT. THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION AND TIME. ******************************************** |
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Honestly Joe, I don't disagree with the majority of your views. I share many of them. I just don't agree with your presentation. In my eyes, it all comes down to fun. If they're smiling, they're doing something right. |
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JoeySchmoe - I have a suggestion, since you won't tell us where you hang out, or what you look like so we can see what good dancing looks like... Check the discussion link for dance contests. There is one at the end of this month at Dance North County. Several of us "eyesores" that hang at the Catamaran will be in the contest. You and your wife should show up, enter, and show us what good dancing is all about. You can always keep your eyes closed while the others are performing. Wouldn't want to invoke any involuntary gastral spasming. |
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Contests have no passion. Why should Joey bother? |
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Thanks for the invite for the contest, but I will be out of the country for at least a month. So to all San Diegans, keep practicing. I'll see you guys in a month or so at Catalina or maybe Beantown. Joe |
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Friends, In response to the anonymous post "San Diegan's requirements to be friends with: SDLHS - (San Diego Lindy Hop Society) $25 My being one of the nine founders of the San Diego Lindy Hop Society would Like to note that the society is completely non-profit. None of us are paid a penny for the work that we do promoting the dances, and all earned funds make it possible for us to provide the next event and to bring it's teachers to our town. I for one was blown away when Bernard of Hollywood and Josie Say accepted our invitation to teach a weekend workshop almost 3 years ago…..But then Sweden's Rhythm Hot Shot Katrine Ljunggren came and taught us The Black Bottom along with the Lindy Hop; we were a very insignificant town to tour at this time. Many other wonderful teachers now tour our town and we are lucky to have individuals like Meeshi & Shawn, and Jamie & Elisha sponsoring teachers and events providing us all with continuous opportunities to learn and practice our dance locally. |
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I found this article on Break Dancing. It caught my attention because it held some interesting paralell when placed next to swing. Read it and let me know what you think. Power Moves vs. Styles Written By Krayz E Kujo If you've been breakin'/b-boyin' for more than a few months then you're probably aware of the debate over which style of breakdancing is superior, power moves or styles/footwork. The debate goes something like this: B-boys who concentrate primarily on power moves say that what they do is more difficult than footwork, and B-boys who concentrate on footwork say that power people can't dance and have no creativity, and that they are just a bunch of wannabe gymnasts. What both camps fail to realize is that by ignoring an entire aspect of breakin', they are limiting their potential as b-boys. Yet there are, however few, b-boys who combine the best of both worlds. Style is dope because it defines who you are as a dancer. It allows your personality to shine through; it allows people to see who you really are underneath all that gear. It lets you create a character, an aura about yourself that makes you stand out from the rest of the crowd. It can make you instantly recognizable in a circle. It is (or should be) pure originality. Power is all about taking the limits of the human body to another level. It is about defying the laws of physics. This is an aspect of breakin' where you have a variety of standard moves which must be practiced constantly for weeks, months, even years, to perfect. People do horrible things to their bodies just learn a single move or combination. Originality rarely comes into play; b-boys just learn techniques from other b-boys and from videos. Style is all about invention and self-expression, power is all about perfection of techniques. After all these years that breakin' has existed, these standards have become sort of cliche. I see the same moves and combos at every event, party, and club that I go to with very little variation. I see all kinds of individual styles, but they are each becoming less and less distinct as more and more people take up b-boyin' as a way of life. The majority of b-boys I have seen seem to be stuck in some sort of rut. They don't seem to know what else to do, what else to practice, other than to improve what they already have. But how many b-boys have dared to try something totally different? Has anyone ever considered using style and footwork to push past the limits of the human body? Or using power moves as a means of self-expression and individuality? Power is perfection, but how many b-boys have come up with styles and tricks that take months, even years to perfect? Style is invention and self-expression, but how many b-boys use power as a means of self-expression, and how many b-boys have invented completely new moves, some of which become part of the standard repertoire? The conventional styles of b-boyin' have come close to reaching their limits. Many of the hardest combinations, once thought impossible, have been done. Many of the most creative, bizarre, and crowd-pleasing styles have been done (and copied). This is partly because many people, when they first begin to breakdance, learn by watching. They watch people at clubs and parties, and they studiously watch videos, and then they go home and practice what they saw. Many of these people have no one to teach them techniques, and learn by watching, but they never learn any theory, i.e., what it means to be a b-boy. My advice to aspiring b-boys: Don't do everything you see. Once you've learned the basics, CREATE. Don't do what you see in videos, do what you DON'T see. For many people, the hardest thing to do is create. The top b-boys didn't get to the top with a monkey-see, monkey-do attitude (although they probably started out with that attitude). They got to the top by distorting the preconceived notions of what breakdancing is, thus creating their own unique styles and signature moves, making a name for themselves. Unfortunately, many of the top b-boys in the world are too busy making self-promotional videos for profit, doing shows, etc. to contribute to the up-and-coming generation of b-boys and b-girls. If approached by eager young b-boys asking to learn a move or technique, they ask for a fee. This is unfortunate, because many of them exemplify the qualities I discussed, i.e., fusing style and power moves, but refuse to pass them on. I predict that with the coming generation of b-boys and b-girls, the dividing line between highly creative dancers and less creative dancers will grow thicker and thicker. We will see b-boys of tremendous creativity, while the rest continue to imitate, because they will not have been educated. I plan to do my part, and I hope to see other influential b-boys do the same. Peace. Krayz E Kujo Just Another Slave To The Rhythm Soul Control Thanks to BBOY.COM for allowing me to express my humble opinion. |
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SHORT POSTS RULE! SAY WHAT YA GOTTA SAY AND GET OUT! |
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Bite me. |
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Yo Tofu, That excerpt from b-boy.com was one of the best posts I've read, yet. It's amazing how these conflicts and differences of opinion can be paralleled in a completely seperate dance scene. I gotta give you some PHAT props for spotting that on the 'net and bringing it down here. ![]() |
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Once apon a time Royal Crown Revue played the Casbah. Tio Leo's had big swing, Casbah had Big Swing-on a regular basis. The Hanelei had swing every week. Buffalo Joes booked good swing bands, ie Steve Lucky. Shows were attended by well dressed and vintage lifestylers. True, There wasn't much lindy hop, but there was swing, there was ambience, and the bars made a fair profit or at least covered their expenses. There was some where with a good band at least four nights a week. BTO was an up and coming band, but was not the highlight of the week (not a cut on BTO, I am a huge fan). Today the ambience has disappeared and many places wont book swing anymore, if they do it is a low cost band that really isn't very swingable, or it is rockabilly because those patrons drink. The well dressed lifestyle beverage consumers have been chased off by the hip hop dancer/athletes. This I have realized is the real issue of the stripes vs dress/style debate. This is why the vintage wearers criticise the hip-hop stripe wearers. I think people like Andy and Charlie have become great dancers and are generally cool people. The scene in San Diego has fallen apart, not because of a lack of personal coolnes, but because the newbies on the scene aren't supporting the bar owners and their unwillingness to be hep or dress swing have chased away those who did support the bar owners. Cover charges do not make money for the bar, they barely pay the band, therefore saying you are supporting the scene just by being there is not supportive. Bar owners make money on drinks(this is why you get a dirty look for asking for water). Since Lindy Hoppers dont't drink and have chased off the drinkers, they don't want us. 2 years ago we could literally choose between BTO and the Big 6. Now we choose between Zoot Suit Review and Must-See-TV. This is why the SD scene is criticised by LA people and others. The dilution of the scene and the unwillingness to dress swing has had a financial effect on the swing scene. That is why the vintage types go off when people say swing isn't about the dress but the feeling. The swing movement started as much because of the dress as the dance(this explains why the drinking crowd supported the scene but really didn't dance). This isn't meant to be a personal attack on anyone. I have talked with many people, trying to figure out how lindy has exploded so much, but the number of good swing bands and nights has diminished so much since two years ago. There is a reason why swing has exploded commercially, but so few clubs/venues have decent if any swing. ![]() |
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These are all very good and valid points. I must add that perhaps stripey lindy-hoppers don't want or need live music and or alcohol, (I do, but then I'm a lifestyler). But it just may be that there is a different scene evolving. One that prefers dance halls and gyms to bars and Gimlets. I'm not sure how this will affect the future of swing, I only see that there are two distinct philosophies, and though they overlap, they are very different approaches to swing life. |
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"The well dressed lifestyle beverage consumers have been chased off by the hip hop dancer/athletes." I'm sorry, but I find the idea that a small band of stripey wearers (there are maybe one or two on a dance floor on any given night, except at the wonderful Rocket) have managed to chase away all the "well dressed" lifestylers a little ridiculous! Most of the people I see out dancing are neither vintage or stripey wearers. ![]() |
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It's funny to suggest that vintage wearers have all the money to support clubs. As a group, the vintage wearers usually account for one small table, well hidden in the back. I don't think any club owner is betting the success of swing nights on that. It's tougher to get the good swing bands because they are getting their just rewards now, more money for gigs! Everything is always the "good old days". That's just an excuse for being lazy now. I also suspect that since losing the scene to better up and coming dancers, a good number of so-called old timers are just being selfish about wanting unchallenged reign over the little San Diego community. Grow up! |
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I don't think Ian means that. I think he has observed people not wearing vintage or even something half decent (not adidas stuff, but people in old sweats and T-shirts) that use to take over the Casbah, and bring thier own bottles of water in thier gym bag, as well as use the bar to stretch on. Well, this killed the atmosphere (which is a big draw--imagine going to an intimate, romantic restaurant only to have all the waiters in shorts and they serve you with plastic plates and silverware). Which turned off a lot of the regular Rockabillys (yes, you have to give them credit for a lot of this resurgence. Even though it's a completely differnt group. They were the first one's out there supporting RCR and BBVD). Well, that turned off a lot of these people who supported the hell out of the bar. I drink, but I dont drink that much, but a lot of the guys in the Rockabilly scene and gals too, support the bar in spades! I welcome a debate on the evolution of Swing if you want as well. Being someone that was into the fashion and music before the dance I have a different perspective than what you may have. I have also been dancing over four years which in lindy hop terms is a long time, specially for SD. I do not purport to be an expert, just have a bit of experience and history in the scene. |
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"...the newbies in the scene aren't supporting the bar owners and their unwillingness to be hep or dress swing have chased away those who did support the bar owners." You are serious, aren't you? That's ridiculous. Totally. Just because you dress vintage doesn't make you a bar supporter. I'm totally agreeing that swingers should buy a drink or two and tip for the water. I do. Lots don't. I've known plenty of serious vintage clothes wearers that don't buy drinks, either. Vintage, stripey, or neutral, the swingers rule should be "thou shall buy drinks". And how were the "supporters" chased away? They felt awkward because they were the only ones dressed-up? If they loved to dance, I doubt it would bother them. I think to have a thriving scene you need a bar with a good, big, dance floor, regular swing nights with a good bands, free swing lessons for all the new people before the show, and lots of room for the newbies to hang-out, drink, and watch the good dancers (not just the vintage ones!), and listen to the band. Hanger-ons and newbies drink, better dancers don't seem to. Some of the newbies become good, some drop due to intimidation, boredom, or whatever. Not 'cause the guy sitting next to them wasn't wearing suspenders! Give me a break! I just saw a Burger-King commercial set to swing music. Its all over the media. Its all over the world. But maybe you are right that it is a little quiet in San Diego. We need to change that. But wearing vintage isn't the answer! |
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To: "Swingerz" I don't think anyone's saying anything about making everyone wear vintage, or the vintage clad are better than anyone or even better dancers. Well-dressed just means no shorts, baggy T-shirts and sloppy sweats. As far "As a group, the vintage wearers usually account for one small table, well hidden in the back," exactly what clubs do you go to??? I have been at the Catamarran, The Casbah and Tio Leo's, and at least half of the patrons are well-dressed whether it be vintage or just nice shirts and slacks, and I must say I see a lot of people trying to get into the "swing of things." "a good number of so-called old timers are just being selfish about wanting unchallenged reign over the little San Diego community" Ummmm, what is that suppose to mean. Can you elaborate because I don't get this "unchallenged reign thing," I know I've never felt like that. I am just personally disappointed that we do not have as many good live shows than we use to. There are plently of talented dancers here. I welcome them all, it only makes SD stronger. I personally would like more Dean Collin's dancers, but there will be more as the style grows. (again I am not saying it is "better") |
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We've seen many a swing club die in the OC & LA areas. I currently promote a club, and have worked with Jaime Munoz who does Music City and Rhino Room. Music City is dead. It's life taken by two things; DJ's and lack of bar sales. Let's face it swing is addicting for many people. At the same time it's costly. If you're doing it multiple nights of the week the cost adds up. I know I can't afford to pay for bands, buy drinks, and tip the bartender on a regular basis. People can now go to Memories twice a week for what the cost of one Music City Trip. It's simple math. I think we've all realized that dancers, overall, don't drink the wowie sauce. And then to top it, dancers don't tend to put on the happy face with those who do drink. Those are the main reasons that I've witnessed causing the death of venues round the area. It's not a clothing issue. It's simple economics. Here's a list of what I think are contributing factors to the swing's demise: 1. Dancers don't drink. 2. Dancers are less than cordial to those who do 3. Dancers can prefer a cost effective club.(DJ) 4. Bands have jacked up their prices. Many stick to more corporate gigs because they pay more. Even the sucky bands are pricey to book. You'd think they'd try and help the dancers out a little. I guess we all gotta pay bills. 4.5 Tiny people live in my refridgerator and turn the lights off and on. 5. Dancers kill it for themselves. They forget that newbies help to perpetuate the scene. New blood is essential to the existence of any scene, business, or organisation. If somebody asks for help, don't brush 'em off. 6. We won't survive if everyone doesn't have fun. |
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Good points Tofu. I agree, I don't think it has anything to do with ambiance, dress styles, dance styles etc. On the old SD post board, we had a big discussion about points 5 and 6... we gotta keep the scene growing! (about point 4.5...I got the same little f'ers in my closet keeping me up at nite) ~8^0 Plus, when we do have the bigger bands, it's a zoo with no room to dance, so it's no fun anyway. Like, who really wants to go dance to BTO at Tio's, anyway? Not without wearing my Michelin Man Suit. |
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Nothing thrills me more than to dance at an occasion where the music and the band with a dynamc bandleader is the hit of the show. The audiance is not all dancers, it is music lovers; and the dancers there are an accessory of the music and not attempting to be the showstopper. The audiance knows the difference between these types of dancers, and finds the couples who are gracious to the band and romantically living it up to the music worthy of the complements. These are the shows that I value! For instance, the Count Basie Orchestra at 4th & B last year was just this; I had so much fun. These type of shows will always be around and I will wait for them.....You can have the "For the dancers" club "One-up Eachother" nights; I just get nauseated at entering a room full of of this Too much Style Candy arena. Encourage the BlueHair Bands, dance in your gowns and hats and the tradition will be here for your lifetime, and your kids. Will your kids arrange beautiful photos of you on their family walls of the night you danced in the Grand Ballroom in 1999 in your sweats and addidas's? |
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I'm with you, Nancy, on the thrill of a great nite. One such nite for me was when Bill Elliot was at the Sheraton. The band really put on a show, and were the focus of the evening. What a nite! I will remember it forever. Several times when I've seen Eddie Reed, I've gotten the same feeling. I'm not sure what you're meaning or talking about with "For the dancers" club "One-up Eachother" nights" "Too much Style Candy arena" Where does this happen? As far as my grandkids? If they choose to put up pictures, I'm certain they won't choose them based on whether I was wearing Adidas to an event or not. How do I know? Because my kids will be raised with solid values, one being to not judge people on outward appearance. I don't think you have look like Fred Astaire to have a romantic evening... good looking, slicked hair, fancy duds... romance is not an external event, but something within that touches the heart and soul. You can have romance when you're out camping, as well as dancing in Adidas gear. |
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