The problem of too few good leads

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SwingOrama Forum: Lindy Hop: The problem of too few good leads

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By Ron on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 01:15 pm: Edit

I want to start a new thread for fun. We just said goodbye to Luis Tuesday and that cuts the number of good leads in this town down noticeably. Tony is leaving in August. The facts are that more women than men are generally interested in dance, they have a better aptitude for it (to start with), and it is harder to learn to lead than to follow. So even if some men take some classes, its really difficult for them, and the drop-out rate is tremendous and many leads never make it out of that awkward, intimidated beginner stage. (Many of the women don't either, but its the men I'm more worried about here.) I've also heard plenty of complaints about the odd and outright bad leads in this town. Because there are so few good leads, the odd or outright bad or painful leads are still able to stick around in the scene and get to dance regularly which they clearly have a passion for. So the lack of good leads is even more pronounced than the raw numbers of leads vs follows suggest. And also due to the lack of leads and good leads, the women don't get to dance as much as they want, and they often have to be aggressive about asking men to dance before they are taken. Or be a great follow just to get any attention. Its all-around not an ideal situation. How can we promote the development of more good leads?

By Twirly on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 01:26 pm: Edit

I'm gonna start dancing with Laurel :) Seriously though, if more of us follows learned how to lead we'd have a whole other pool of leads to dance with out there.

By Laurel Nishida on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 01:46 pm: Edit

Just so long as you lead, Twirly! Cuz I suck at that - just ask any of the men in Meeshi's class. I have much more fun following right now. An obvious solution would be to keep asking beginning leads to dance. The more practice they get, the better they'll become. I'll confess that I've found a few more good leads already and I'm going to keep them a secret for as long as I can! :P I'm still terrible about being aggressive and asking guys to dance.

By James Moore on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 02:38 pm: Edit

Beginning leads will remember _forever_ what you say to them after dances. If you have anything nice to say about particular things they do, don't hesitate to speak up. (And if they ask and you say no, it's going to be a long time before they ask you again.) When you're first starting out, asking people to dance is really tough. Once you've danced with someone a couple times, it gets a lot easier.

By Ron on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Personally, even though I don't dance with them, I try to compliment the new leads I see that are doing well. Compliments should always be genuine, though, not a lie.

By HopMichael on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 03:54 pm: Edit

James, you are soooo correct about the memory of those first dances. It is psychologically intimidating to ask a follow to dance with the risk of being rejected in the background. So I totally agree with your advice to follows who are being asked to dance by a beginning lead: remember that you are dealing with a fragile ego. Handle with care. When a beginning lead becomes a good lead, he'll remember the way you treated him in the beginning. [I suppose the same advice could be given to leads asking beginning follows to dance, as well.] Compliments require little effort and encourage the timid to take chances and to improve.

By Ron on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 04:55 pm: Edit

There were these two decent follows in Chicago who were always so very nice to me when I was learning who I will never forget. Hmmmmm. Mary-Anne and Amy.

By Ron on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 04:56 pm: Edit

Speaking of rising star leads, what happened to always-wears-a-white-tshirt tall Bill? And rising star Tad is looking pretty good.

By Natalie Roy on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 05:07 pm: Edit

Weird timing for this thread, I started learning how to lead at one of Meeshi's classes last night. And I have to say *respect* to you men! I thought my head was going to explode with all the thinking I had to do. Give me a couple of millenia and I might *just* have the guts to do it again scoially after a particularly abortive attempt on a very packed Catamaran dance floor list night (blush). Assuming that I don't have to be a good lead to jump in on this thread: You think the number of just plain, good leads is bad - try the sub-set that also fits into tall. That's a bit unfair of me really. With the good leads, height doesn't matter. But some of the more newbie leads find it more difficult to adjust to the follows height, so you can get some bad shoulder wrenching going on. Does one then follow the etiquette of no teaching on the dance floor, at the expense of the odd limb? Or does one subtly hint by bending double for the turns There's something oddly amusing about someone hitting you in the face with your own hand.

By Chris on Thursday, April 20, 2000 - 06:44 pm: Edit

That is humorous Nat!! (the face w/ the hand thing). . . lol!! Shana and I have talked about this quite often. There seems to be plenty of great follows in SD, but they lack leads. We are currently having trouble matching up a friend with a lead of the same ability. One of the problems is that males have a hard time taking criticism from another, especially if he doesn't know him. Those males think to themselves, "who died and made you God?" I don't know how Melissa got Tonya in to Lindy, but I recall Tonya telling me that Mel was teaching her. Maybe, I don't know if this would work or not, but what about a BIG brother sort of thing. I remember in my college years, not so long ago, that I had a big brother in my fraternity that introduced me to many new people, and sort of guided me for the first two semesters(at least that was the theory behind it). Perhaps we could do something similar in the SD Lindy scene. It won't or doesn't need to be so formal, but if one of the veteran leads notices potential in a newbie they could take them in under their wing. This would require the utmost honesty and faith in the potential male. Since some people can not afford private lessons once a week, this would really help the less fortunate. Not only would a veteran lead have a "protege" (so to speak), but it would really encourage the newbie to learn more. Positive reinforcement and encouragement really play a vital role in everyone's growth. People tend to try harded, excel faster, and learn more when they have someone taking personel interest in their growth (to speak in general). This might be too unrealistic, but it has possibilities. It at least gives an idea to think about and expand on. About the follows: Misha and I were talking at dinner on Sunday night and he was very impressed with the follows he danced with from SD. Two names that came up were Laura and Tonya's. These two are the more recent follows that have joined our scene, and they have really grown in their abilities.

By Michele4 (Michele4) (dialup-209.245.46.124.sandiego1.level3.net - 209.245.46.124) on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 01:01 am: Edit

Dancers dancing with the newbie leads are the newbie/intermediate follows. Most newbie leads are too intimidated by the advanced dancers to ask them to dance. And although flattering, it is also somewhat intimidating as a newbie follow to be asked to dance by an advanced dancer b/c we're afraid we won't 'catch' a move and follow like we're suppose to. It's obvious that one should never tell a newbie that they are 'doing something wrong', or say something like, why can't you follow? That's worse than getting accidently bumped or struck. I'll agree that a way to encourage is to give appropriate compliments, smile, and say thank you after the dance, if you mean it. That is what has kept me going. Plus you get to meet some nice folks, and you never know who you'll meet or be dancing with(like I've met a math PhD who has known my brother for years).

By HopMichael on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 10:41 am: Edit

Ron wrote: ==== And also due to the lack of leads and good leads, the women don't get to dance as much as they want, and they often have to be aggressive about asking men to dance before they are taken. Or be a great follow just to get any attention. ==== On further reflection, isn't that just how evolution works? Mating decisions in nature are often based on the ability to be the most ostentatious (e.g. brightly colored feathers of peacocks and most male birds) or aggressive (e.g. "alpha males" of packs, antler fighting among young bucks, etc.). Social Darwinism for follows...hmm...maybe some merit in that idea after all.

By Natalie Roy on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 10:53 am: Edit

Expanding on Chris's idea, maybe as well as a big brother, newbie leads need an assigned hareem of say intermediate follows, that will dance at least a couple of dances with them each night. I've found a solution to the face hitting problem....pig-tails! They give the illusion of extra height and make the lead 'aim' higher, but have the benefit of 'giving'. A bit like slalom poles I guess. HopMichael, do my pig-tails count as lindy-antlers?

By Ron on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 11:59 am: Edit

I was noticing your pig-tails last night, Natalie, how cute. I think when dancing with shorter leads like me you would do better to duck under an arm than let it hit you in the face... I can't do much--it looks funny when I jump up and down to get the arm over someone's head. It was funny when we were reversing roles in class and Aprillyn was leading Gene...

By CatThyme on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 12:12 pm: Edit

Some of the shorter follows have been noticing that it tends to be the taller leads that hit us in the head. What's with that?

By Arthur on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 12:20 pm: Edit

Mainly because it's fun. ^_^

By Natalie Roy on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 01:51 pm: Edit

Hey, I'm not talking about scuffing the top of the head here. I'm talking about the first thing you know about the turn is your own hand projected rapidly into your mouth. I've seriously had to leave the dance floor in the middle of a song having had my lip split. You'll be glad to know that none of you lovely leads (brown nose, borwn nose, creep, creep) out here were the culprit. This was by in the UK, when I was doing some b*st*rdized form of swing, called LeRoc (also known as CeRoc) and happily not found outside of that country (now that I've found the one, true swing I renounce my former evil ways). Ron, I have to go for little girly pig-tails - how else could I compete with Chance's cutie-pie pony-tail? I do try and duck for the most part, plus I seem to have started this spin-at-an-angle styling type thing, which probably takes a couple of inches of height-wise. Ron, I have no problems with your lead, but as to your comment about jumping up and down, you could make it a styling thing and start a(nother) break off faction of savoy - pogo lindy ;-) I was intersted in CatThyme's comments that the shorter follows have the same problem. Guy's what's goign on? And do female leads smack male and/or female follows in the head too? Hey we could work this into a little research project, set up some experiments under laborat...err,...social dance conditions, use control groups. We could even get our findings published in Nature, "Swingouts and knockouts: head trauma in the Lindy Hop scene". Or maybe we should get Meeshi to run some special offers: "Free headguard for all follows on completion of Intro to Lindy and Lindy I dance classes". Turning the thread; is there any part of you guys that us gals tend to whack, or just generally damage? I know I have the odd night where my arms go a bit high when I spin, and more than one adams apple has been within a cat's whisker of mortal danger.

By HopMichael on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 01:59 pm: Edit

LOL! Great post, Natalie. Hmm.. what part of me gets whacked? Usually, for me, it's my cap that gets tipped off when I'm going under a low bridge (read: follow's arm). However, I have countered this nuisance with a quick catch complete with swooping arm motion and re-planting, so that it looks like my follow was trying to do this cap drop/catch move. =)

By Twirly on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 02:04 pm: Edit

Well I have to confess to smacking leads in the face every now and then (and I mean "on" the dance floor, not off) :) I think Charlie, particularly, has been on the receiving end of my flailing hands several times, I gave Tan a split lip once, and I almost put my thumb up Gene's nose the other night. And then there's the black eye I gave Andy...the list goes on and on :)

By Arthur on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 02:16 pm: Edit

Well there's that right cross, but you were probably talking about something dance-related, huh?

By Natalie Roy on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Ok, I think we've determined that sensible precautions include protective headgear and a gumshield (although I think it's called something else over here, help me out twirly), and maybe we could soften the blows by padding follows hand up in big padded gloves, how about padding the top of the foot to stop the maiming associated with over-active Charleston moves.... hang on..... Welcoooooooooome tooooooooooooooo Boxer-Lindy, or is it Tae Hop? Twirly, I had no idea you were so violent, I'll have to try it, it sounds like fun. I nearly choked trying not to laugh out loud at the nose comment - open plan offices are so inconvenient sometimes

By Chris on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 02:42 pm: Edit

Talking about getting hit. Last year at Catalina I was dancing w/ this girl and she wasn't in control of her elbows, and she knocked me right in the eye! It was purely accidental. She asked if I was OK, I said no problem - I'm fine. I finished the dance w/ her with one eye and her looking scared to death. I thanked her for the dance and she ran off L. I never did see her again that weekend, well once but she walked the other way (I wonder why?). Needless to say, I completed the camp with a beautiful black eye, and it stayed with me for about 2 - 3 weeks after the incident.

By Natalie Roy on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 03:18 pm: Edit

I'm sorry to hear about the black eye, Chris. But in retrospect it *is* funnny. How do you explain to non-dancers that you got a black eye dancing? Maybe follow kit should include wrist weight to help us keep those arms *down*. They would also give a slightly better upper-body work-out and could be featured more heavily in the Boxer-Lindy video I'm planning. Twirly, do you want to be the leading lad...following lady? Any offers of leads? I'm pretty protective of my led (right) shoulder. I do try to avoid dancing with leads who wrench it on a regular basis (and after friendly explanations about leading tall follows out of fast turns too). My left shoulder is somewhat b*gg*r*d and dislocates fairly easily, so I tend to baby my remaining good shoulder. The funnyest thing was when I was taking a golf lesson and managed to dislocate said shoulder. I thought the pro was gonna faint. LOL I didn't know whether it was because he was squeamish or whether he was sick with worry that I was going to sue.

By Ron on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 05:03 pm: Edit

Natalie, you are full of good ideas. I particularly like the pogo-lindy, and the padding the top of the foot ideas! I've been definitely known to bop a few follows on the top of the head occasionally, I guess because I don't lift both our arms up high enough, not sure why. Probably because I'm short, maybe because I get lazy. I haven't been on the receiving end of too many blows, yet, though. Altho last night I got a good elbow in the jaw, but that's pretty unusual. I remember Chris' black eye at Catalina, it was ugly! And Natalie, its ok to spell out "buggered", since most of us Americans don't know what it means anyway.

By Wanderer on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 08:24 pm: Edit

Social Darwinism doesn't apply to humans... otherwise women wouldn't have to fuss with heels, hair, and makeup to impress. ;)

By Michele4 (Michele4) (lsana010-1123.splitrock.net - 63.255.20.107) on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 10:47 pm: Edit

If we were animals, wouldn't the point be just to boink and forget about the dancing?

By Natalie Roy on Monday, April 24, 2000 - 08:26 am: Edit

I think I've started a vendetta-type thing. Last night I got 2 heads skims and 2 foot stomps. The cilprits shall remain nameless....you know who you are!

By Laurel Nishida on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 12:01 pm: Edit

Natalie, you are cracking me up! BTW, I wouldn't even try to compete with Chance's cutie-pie ponytail/bun thingy! (I'm not making fun of you, Chance. I think you're great!) Let's see, I don't think I've done serious bodily harm to anyone yet, although during the exchange I nearly hit a few crotches (it must have been with the tall leads). I've also accidentally copped a few feels of people dancing near me with my free hand. How embarrassing - they've usually been women! I have hit a couple of leads in the head with the hand they were holding. As I see it, it's their fault if they're holding my hand! One last thing about being a short follow. Once in a great while, I get someone who turns me with their hand held WAY over my head. Uh, no, that's not going to make me taller.

By Ron on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 01:22 pm: Edit

Accidental breast grabs are no big deal, I do that regularly. If the women weren't wearing such industrial strength bulletproof bras, it might be more fun.

By Kate on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 02:21 pm: Edit

Note to self: Slap Ron next time you see him.

By julius on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Slap him once more for me, wouldja?

By Natalie Roy on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 04:01 pm: Edit

ooooooh Ron, you're wrong, sooo wrong. Don't make me prove it (oo, er missus!)

By CatThyme on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 04:03 pm: Edit

He's obviously accidentally grabbing the wrong breasts. Not all the women are wearing the industrial bras...

By Carolyn Mondro on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Hhmmm..."accidental" breast grabs sound a little suspicious! I say, Swingchicks vs. Ron, Slapfest, Firehouse, Thurs night! ;)

By Laurel Nishida on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 04:34 pm: Edit

Who said anything about breast grabs? I tend to swat people's rears. I think I'll "accidentally" nail Ron in the crotch next time I see him. Better wear your sport cup, Ron. *evil snicker*

By Twirly on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 04:38 pm: Edit

You know, Ron would probably like that (sorry Ron, couldn't resist :)

By Natalie Roy on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Ron, I can't believe that you drew attention to the fact that you grab women's tits - and then insult their underwear. Talking of underwear, I still crack up everytime I hear someone say, "Oh, he's the guy in suspenders". In English-English that only means one thing, the lacy article used to hook onto the top of ladies stockings. Hee, hee, hee. (braces is the word we use). Sounds like Ron's in for a bit of a beating/molestation.

By James Moore on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 05:07 pm: Edit

Laurel, you seem so sweet and innocent in person, but then I read your posts and realize I'm totally clueless.

By CatThyme on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 05:15 pm: Edit

This is twice since Swing Break that Ron's sounded "disappointed" in the women's bras.

By HopMichael on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 06:50 pm: Edit

Ron, You knew you were going to draw this response with that comment, didn't ya? =) Hmmm...I suspect he's looking forward to the "revenge." (LOL!)

By Laurel Nishida on Wednesday, April 26, 2000 - 01:06 pm: Edit

James, sorry to disappoint you! But you'll soon realize that I'm all talk. I'm pretty harmless, really!

By James Moore on Wednesday, April 26, 2000 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Sure. Yep. "Pretty harmless" sounds even more ominous than "mostly harmless," and we all know what that means.

By Ron on Wednesday, April 26, 2000 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Hey, at least I got people posting! Natalie, the key word in my post was "accidental". I don't ever do it intentionally and I always apologize afterwards.

By Ron on Wednesday, April 26, 2000 - 02:13 pm: Edit

... but if I was to ever start grabbing on purpose I'd start with yours, Natalie. and then I'd run.

By Natalie Roy on Wednesday, April 26, 2000 - 04:53 pm: Edit

You'd better be able to run FAST. I haven't forgotten how to do a flying rugby tackle

By Anonymous on Wednesday, April 26, 2000 - 05:17 pm: Edit

Hmmm...with that tackle and run off, we'd be losing another lead...=) [that was the original topic, wasn't it?]

By Melbamoose on Wednesday, April 26, 2000 - 11:05 pm: Edit

How come the oh so not anonymous trailing of digits and letters after people's names isn't on everyone's anymore? How come someone just posted anonymously with no problem? Shawn...?

By Ron on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 09:28 am: Edit

Re: Shawn turning IP address off/anonymous back on. Why do you think we need it? I was quite happy with it the way it was. We had no one flaming or complaining anonymously, and we had some fun exchanges using our names. Yehoodi doesn't have anonymous posters and they do just fine. Why do we think we have to open this up back up to anonymous posters?

By Shawn Hanna on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 10:51 am: Edit

I'm just experimenting with the board. I am moving the whole system in the next few days and want to try some back-end features. Patience...

By Arthur on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 10:55 am: Edit

He said "back-end features". uh... huhh-huhh. =)

By Shawn Hanna on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 11:10 am: Edit

I didn't write that just to get rear ended by your bottom dwelling, butt-headed, anal, seat-of-your pants post.

By Ron on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 11:13 am: Edit

So you turning swingorama into a porn/sex site, after all?

By Shawn Hanna on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 11:18 am: Edit

Sure, that from the notorious Bra Man.

By John P. Cooper on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 11:22 am: Edit

Should the heading of this thread be changed to "The problem of too few good posts"? The "events" heading has also had quite a few posts that were mere banter. How about a "mere banter" thread?

By Natalie Roy on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 11:30 am: Edit

John, are you saying that our posts aren't good enough for you??? ;-) Seeing as you didn't start a banter thread to post you post under, I started one for you.

By Ron on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 11:36 am: Edit

Hey, maybe I need a bra-banter thread.

By Ron on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 11:39 am: Edit

So to gloriously bring this banter back into the original topic, I have a great idea. To get more leads into swing, I think the women should stop wearing bras altogether. Just think of the interest that will generate in swing! dancing, that is.

By Natalie Roy on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 12:41 pm: Edit

Ron, you have a one track mind! So how many body guards have you hired fro tonight ;-)

By Arthur on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 12:46 pm: Edit

Yeah! More nekkid blues dancing! That'll bring in the leads. Oh, wait. You want more *good* leads. Hmm... =) I don't dance with a bra, but I play one on t.v.

By Anonymous on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 12:51 pm: Edit

Maybe the follows can all just wear more colorful and lacy bras...

By Natalie Roy on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 12:53 pm: Edit

Arthur, on t.v. or on a t.v.? Blues bras for blues dancing?

By Joe M on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 12:58 pm: Edit

Now I see how people use the internet while at work!!

By Arthur on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 01:08 pm: Edit

I've played with quite a few things while watching t.v. ;)

By Ron on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 01:19 pm: Edit

please don't go there, Arthur.

By Arthur on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 01:30 pm: Edit

What? Don't play? I'm quite good with my hands, don't you know. At least, *you* didn't seem to complain. And that was at the dinner table! ;)

By Laurel Nishida on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Any of those things belong to Susan, Arthur? Hmm? Oh, dear, Susan is going to punch me tonight. All right, I'll shut up now.

By Reuben Brown on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 01:41 pm: Edit

Hey Ron, Just wanted to let you know that what's underneath those bras are allot cooler. Once you actually get to take out of those contraptions off you will understand this fact. Then you will finally stop talking about bras and move on to better topics, i.e. boobs.

By HopMichael on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 02:48 pm: Edit

I can vouch that Arthur has verrrry good hands! =)

By Natalie Roy on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 03:54 pm: Edit

I agree, Arthur can play with me at the dinner table anytime!

By Arthur on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Sorry, but after Susan and San Francisco, Chicago has dibbs on me (or my hands). ;) At least Seattle hasn't made any demands for me so you're ahead of them. =)

By Ron on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Reuben, I vaguely recall that... a distant memory... I hate to break it to you, Reuben, but Meeshi doesn't have much in the boob department.