SwingOrama Forum

SwingOrama Forum: Anything Goes!: Not-so-new dancers

By kate wiseman (Solidsender) on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 02:53 pm: Edit

I moved down here about six months ago, and I'll admit that at first I didn't go out dancing very often. But lately, I've been out, and yet I still really don't feel like I'm getting to know people. From talking to people I get the feeling that I'm not alone in this. It seems like dancers who post that they are going to be in town, especially good ones, are really well received, but somehow I've missed that window and am left feeling like the scene is going on around me but I'm not in it. I'm definitely not trying to rag on anyone here, but I love to dance and its hard to get yourself out that often when you recognize tons of people and only know a few. So my question is, what now? I'm a decent dancer, and I've asked lots of leads to dance, and I usually get that looks that says, "Huh, your pretty good, where did you come from?" but at the end of the dance that's it, and with a few of the leads, we'll never dance again unless I ask. Sorry that this is so long-winded, but at least up in San Francisco, dance etiquette was a big deal, and I guess I'm homesick for it.

By Andy (Hitman) on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 03:06 pm: Edit

hi kate,

i think dance etiquette dictates that folks should be polite, but says nothing of an obligation to ask others to dance. I've had many of these same discussions with my fiancee, who had similar feelings and experiences as you. It sounds somewhat harsh, but i really feel that the "scene" doesn't owe anyone... rather the scene is what you make it. ie the public at large doesn't owe anyone a dance. Everyone should dance with who they want. Now, many times, the dynamics of a large scene with folks who know each other well require that newer folks be assertive, and continue to be assertive if they are feeling left out. I know from my own experiences, that many of the regular folks get nabbed for the next dance by other regulars or the very assertive newbies before they even get off the floor. This leaves the less assertive feeling left out. My fiancee felt the same. Now that she's been more assertive, and come to realize the scene is what she makes of it, she's much happier.

By Natissimo (Hepnat) on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 03:11 pm: Edit

I guess a lot of us try and make out of town visitors welcome because we travel busniess/pleasure) and also hope to get a good reception and a few dances when we swoop down on other towns. That's the explanation, but I guess it's not a good reason, not to make new (to the scene) dancers, feel welcome.
I must say that there are so many new faces at the moment, and I haven't been out dancing as much as I used to that I'm kind of overawed to bounce up so someone as they're likely to have been dancing for about 3 years at UCSD, or something.
I totally sympathize. I didn't really know anyone until about 10 months ago (although it seems like a lifetime), and I didn't have the advantage of being a good dancer either.
There seems to be a bit of a lull in the social (non-dance) side of the scene at the moment, or that could be my perception, just cause I'm busy, and out of it.
Are you going to be at the Rocket tonight? I should be, and I'd love to introduce myself to you. I'll be the tall follow in pigtails and skants. Just ask for the person at the door to point me out.

Natalie

By Tertia Miyashiro (Tertia) on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 03:22 pm: Edit

Kate,

I think that you have to keep asking until the leads finally figure out that you really do want to dance with everyone. I have been around for quite a long time, and it is the same for me...I still have to do the asking. I don't know what it is, but I sometimes get the feeling that there are leads who think that I don't want to dance with them. Perhaps it's the same for those that are new to the scene...I don't really know, and I can't seem to figure it out either. I do know that I have never been refused when I finally ask for a dance. I think that this is the case for pretty much all the girls. So the question is...are you guys shy, or what?!

Or, do we girls need to reinforce the issue of "etiquette" (which, by the way, is a vocabulary word for this week in my class)? Let us further discuss this and help Kate get through this. We don't want San Francisco to think that we don't know proper dance etiquette, right?

By kate wiseman (Solidsender) on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 03:25 pm: Edit

I'm not going to be at the rocket, but my friend Christen and I will be at the firehouse. You've probably seen us before, but just didn't know who we were. I meant it when I said I didn't want to rag on anybody, most people have been really nice. For those of you who haven't met me, I'll wear a black dress over pants, come say "hi".
Kate

By Andy (Hitman) on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 03:37 pm: Edit

some may be shy, but i think it's more a function of the modern woman... sadie hawkins (sp?) kind of a thing. Guys are lucky in this scene since you gals will usually beat us to the punch when it comes time to ask for a dance ~8^)

By Natissimo (Hepnat) on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Won't be at the Firehouse the week, will be freezing my lindy a$$ off in Virginia.
Hope to catch up with you some time.

By HopMichael (Mhwang) on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Hmmm...do I know you Kate? Each time I go out, I try to ask at least 2 people whom I don't know to dance. And I'll just about never refuse a request from a follow--barring complete exhaustion/dehydration.

Don't be afraid to ask a lead to dance (we live in the aughties now); don't be afraid to strike up a conversation as well. That'll get you plugged into the scene quickly too.

And I definitely would never refuse a dance from Tertia, especially now that she's a powerful leader of the free world

-HopM

By Angel Jessica (Angeljess) on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 04:35 pm: Edit

Here's my take. I have been dancing swing, lindy, etc. for about 5 years. I used to go out all the time, 4-5 nights a week, usually once a week in LA. It was a friendly, non-threatening atmosphere for friends (in my opinion). Then the trendiness hit and places got too crowded for my tastes, so I stopped going out much. I started to go out again in the past few months with some of my old buddies and everyone thought I was new to dancing, new to San Diego, etc. I recognized a few faces, but not many. I noticed groups of people tend(ed) to stay together and have felt like you described Kate. I still don't go out dancing much and that is one of the reasons. I think another is there are more DJs and less bands playing. For me, if there is a band, I can really enjoy hanging out and not dancing some of the time. Bars help that too. For me it just doesn't seem as fun as it used to unless I really put in effort, before it seemed a foregone conclusion. I guess the trick for me is, when I do go out, I try and get a couple friends to carpool with and if with no one else, we have each other to dance with and we make our own "good old days" kind of fun.

By Melissa Varriano (Mel) on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 04:41 pm: Edit

black dress over pants...more popular than you may think, kate. you should wear a bright red hairband or something like that

welcome to san diego. i am out almost every thursday and friday. let's chat.

By Arthur (Arthur) on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 05:02 pm: Edit

You could always come back home. Heh.

By Ron (Ron) on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 06:36 pm: Edit

Kate, me and Steven were just talking at the DJ booth last Thursday about how good a dancer you are. So at least a couple of us are finally getting clued in. In general, though, I admit to being pretty oblivious. I keep asking the same people what their name is because I keep forgetting it. Keep persisting. The scene is not going on around you, you and everyone else like you, ARE the scene. It always looks like everyone knows everybody, when really they don't. Most people know only a few people well, particularly ones they took a class with, but not the others.

By Vikki Curwen (Vikki) on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 12:20 am: Edit

Kate, I completely see where you are coming from with this. Sometimes I still feel that way and I've been dancing in San Diego for...I'm not even sure how long. Probably about a year and a half. The lindy scene is somewhere I can feel completely comfortable or very intimidated. I was recently told (by Ryan who has a big mouth but I still appreciate being told) that when I first started dancing people found me unfriendly and hostile. Ahhhhhhhhhh!!!!! How sad! I must have come off this way because I can be incredibly shy with new people. It takes me a long time to get comfortable in a strange place and I obviously didn't do a very good job with all these new people. I love meeting new people, I'm just not good at it. I did have a point when I started to write this. If only I could get to it. I attribute my lack of knowing people in the swing scene completely to myself. It's hard for me to ask people I don't know to dance, to strike up conversations, and to do it over and over. Kate, I'm not saying in the least that it is the same for you. I suppose I just want you to know that I sympathize with you and that shy people would love to meet you as well but probably won't be the ones to initiate the conversation. Also, what Ryan said hit home to me and, to any leads this may apply to, I'm really not hostile! I would love to dance with any of you. I usually find myself dancing with people I know. I'm sure this is the case for most people, and totally natural and fun, but I know I'm not going to improve just by dancing with those I'm used to dancing with. Okay, I'm done with my jumbled thoughts. I'm going to try and get to the firehouse this week, maybe I'll get up the nerve to ask people I don't know to dance!! Cross your fingers...

Vikki

By michele on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 01:25 am: Edit

Yup, I'm another of those folks who 'don't ordinarily go out of my way to talk to people', consider myself a beginner (still trying to figure out how to follow) and don't dance much though I've been a very sporatic attender for at least a year. I have actually found the lindy crowd to be a friendly one, and even those who don't ask me to dance will come up and talk. So, thanks to all you folks who go out of your way to make others feel welcome!

Michele Shimozono

By Twirly (Twirly) on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 11:44 am: Edit

I think you just have to be persistent in asking leads to dance or you can end up doing a lot of sitting on the sidelines. I�m on the shy side so I still have to kick myself in the butt to ask people to dance and I�ve been dancing in San Diego for 3+ years. And there are plenty of more assertive follows out there who do lots of asking so like Andy said, some leads rarely make it off the floor between dances.
Is Christen from SF also? I think I borrowed her hair band at Paul and Sharon�s workshop. I must say that the couple of times I�ve been to SF to dance we got asked to dance a lot � more so than here - but that may have been because we were from out-of-town.

By Arthur (Arthur) on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 12:26 pm: Edit

Personally, I feel leads are spoiled. Spoiled by having follows asking them for a dance. So spoiled that they don't put much effort into asking anymore. I know I'm guilty of that. Remember: It's the lead's (male/female) honor and priviledge to dance with the follow (male/female) so go up and ask for that priviledge. I know it feels good to be asked. Return the favor.

By tony knight (Tonyk) on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 01:42 pm: Edit

Well said Arthur, but coming from personal experience I had the hardest time asking follows to dance. When I first started dancing, I was very shy. Even now sometimes I feel that shyness overcoming my need to connect with an awesome follow. As a lead, it definitely feels awesome to have a follow ask you to dance. Once that happens it is open season in my mind and many times I will seek that girl out again even if the dance was not the best. It also was a long time before I really became friends with people in the scene. There are only about four people who took classes at the same time as I did. It was not until I started going to camps with fellow SD dancers that I began to really know the dancers that I was dancing with. Once that happened, going out dancing became hanging out with friends. Even now in SF, I do not go out just to dance but to spend time talking and dancing with people whose company I really enjoy. Sorry for the rambling but I am operating on no sleep, no food and being sick for the past few days, so I am a little incoherent. Anyway Kate, hang in there. SD people are some of the coolest around. And next time you are up in SF or I am in SD PLEASE feel free to ask me to cut a rug at least for two songs. Just look for the guy that looks like Damon.

By Jane Hance (Janeh) on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 02:53 pm: Edit

Kate, my experience is that it's difficult to "make freinds" on the dance floor even though everyone is very freindly. Maybe you could pick out a couple of follows that are in what you see as "the scene" and work on establishing a freindship with them away from the dance floor (dinner, bowling, hiking, movie, etc). Then you will have "freinds" in the scene to hang with when you go out dancing. That, combined with the leads discovering you can actually dance, will definitely make you feel more welcome. I personally like remaining somewhat annonymous. I go, I dance, I leave.

By Spawn of Satan (Melbamoose) on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Hey Andy...I know it was a milion posts ago, but I just wanted to say that I thought your post was excellent.
Krista

By Steve (Stevek) on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 04:33 pm: Edit

I'm having very similar thoughts with the postings here. I used to have a regular partner, and then I stopped dancing for over a year. Now I'm trying to get back into the scene all by myself and what makes it difficult for me to ask follows is that I'm very shy (I hardly know anyone on the floor), and I feel that I'm very rusty (and I'd feel bad if the follow had a terrible time with me). But I know that if I want to get better, I have to be more assertive, even if it kills me.

Steve

By Laurel (Laurel) on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 10:34 pm: Edit

Shy people unite!! Oh my, have I gone through a lot over the last 3 years. I'm still shy about asking those really good leads to dance. Those pesky feelings of inadequacy sure get in the way. I also get hypersensitive sometimes and take it personally when I get a weird negative vibe (real or imagined?) from a lead. But then again guys can be tired and in a bad mood sometimes too - like I was last week, for example. Tertia has given me good advice in the past. When I hesitated about asking someone to dance because I didn't think he enjoyed dancing with me, she told me not to worry about that, just ask him!

Since this shyness will never completely leave me, I still have to keep reminding myself to socialize with people. Sometimes that's hard to do when you and others are obsessed with the dancing. I'll look out for you at the Firehouse tomorrow, Kate.

I guess what I'm trying to say with all that above babbling, Kate, is that you shouldn't take it personally if leads don't ask you to dance. Just ask them! You'll rarely be turned down. Pretty soon you'll be asked to dance all the time. As for the getting-to-know-people part, I'm not the best one to give advice on that! I still feel like I don't know people all that well and I do take responsibility for that fact. I'm working on it!

By Swingingsinger (Swingingsinger) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 12:12 am: Edit

I wonder why everyone has such long posts on this forum. Maybe it's because it really hits home for so many of us. I understand where everyone is coming from. for the first 1 1/2 of my lindy experience, I had a lead that I would dance a good percentage of the dances with, and it was comfortable, knowing someone and always having your first and last dances booked on your dance card. In the last 4 months I've been without that lead, and it has really kicked my butt into action to actually meet people and be outgoing. It's really strange and scary at first, but it gets easier and actually fun after a while. The funniest thing is when I asked some guys to dance and afterwards they asked where I came from, if I was new, and the answer was no, I've been here almost 2 years, they just never asked me to dance before and I finally got the gumption to ask myself.

Now my main problem is this. I am meeting many leads, (and I'm remembering a few of their names) but I know so few follows. Does anyone have any ideas on how to get to more more follows (as a follow)? I would love to meet any of you posting. (I'm Rachel)

And hang in there, it gets better and easier to make friends and feel comfortable.

By Blackrider (Blackrider) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 12:15 am: Edit

gumption?

By CatThyme (Valorie) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 06:53 am: Edit

Natalie has previously mentioned that the follows could meet at Extraordinary Desserts for dessert, tea and/or coffee before going to the Firehouse. I think that's a great plan for follows meeting the other follows!

Another great opportunity would be meeting up this Saturday before the SDLHS's dance in Balboa Park. If people wanted something more substantial, we could do dinner rather than Extraordinary Desserts.

By Swingingsinger (Swingingsinger) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 10:13 am: Edit

"gumption" as merriam-webster puts it: enterprise, initiative.

Do you need to know what enterprise and initiative mean?

By Arthur (Arthur) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 10:18 am: Edit

I suppose tonight's theme at the Firehouse is "Set Aside Your Shyness and Dance With Everyone Night", eh?

By Reuben Brown (Gurureuben) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 10:37 am: Edit

He knows what gumption means... you must not be a Lebowski fan is all.

By Reuben Brown (Gurureuben) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 10:49 am: Edit

coitus?

By Ryan W Enslow (Renslow) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 11:16 am: Edit

You're not wrong Reuben, you're just an ass.hole.

Somebody had to write it... ^_^

Ryan W. Enslow

By HopMichael (Mhwang) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 12:45 pm: Edit

Hmmm...someone with gumption.

By Reuben Brown (Gurureuben) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Good quote usage there. I'm impressed.

That's your answer to everything, Dude. And let me point out--pacifism is not--look at our current situation with that camelfucker in Iraq-- pacifism is not something to hide behind.

By Ryan W Enslow (Renslow) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 01:42 pm: Edit

You have no frame of reference. You're like child who wanders into a movie and wants to know what's going on.

Heh, I'm sure I'm getting this wrong. I'm going to need to find myself a script to keep this up.

Ryan W. Enslow

By Reuben Brown (Gurureuben) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 01:45 pm: Edit

http://scriptszone.bizland.com/script/biglebowski.txt

Carefull though, it's a bit off from what actually appeared on film... just a little though.

By Ryan W Enslow (Renslow) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Heh, yeah I just now found the same one on a different site. Thanks much.

Ryan W. Enslow

By Spawn of Satan (Melbamoose) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 02:54 pm: Edit

Ah c'mon now Rachel, that wasn't very nice...

By Kermit (Kermit) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 08:13 pm: Edit

No, it wasn't. I kind of enjoyed it. :-)

By Kermit (Kermit) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 08:20 pm: Edit

I agree with Rachel, this is a topic close to home for many of us. Jane's post hit closest for me. When I first came here I was showered with the SD welcome, and was totally overwhelmed. It felt great. Even Krista had something nice to say. :-) After a few weeks, though, the initial welcome wore off. My out-of-town moves weren't so new anymore...or something. So, I realized I have to work at it if I want to fit in here. It is not easy for me, as I am a naturally shy person. It has been up and down ever since.

There are no guarantees, and nothing worthwhile comes free. But, really, I think the scene here is friendlier than anywhere else I have danced (including San Francisco). I found that for some reason the Rocket is the friendliest to newcomers, and the Firehouse the least friendly. There was many a night when I first came here (after my first few weeks) that I felt totally ignored at the Firehouse. That sucks. But, ask and ye shall receive. I think you will find that if you take the time, and show the effort, people will notice.

Thanks for the reminder, Kate. We have all been there.

By Swingingsinger (Swingingsinger) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 08:35 pm: Edit

Sorry if I was a bit rude... That's what happens when I'm bored during my second two-hour-long class in a row. (But I love that we have a speedy net connection in our classroom)

By Swingingsinger (Swingingsinger) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 08:36 pm: Edit

Sorry if I was a bit rude... That's what happens when I'm bored during my second two-hour-long class in a row. (But I love that we have ethernet connection in our classroom)

By kate wiseman (Solidsender) on Friday, February 23, 2001 - 10:40 am: Edit

So I have to admit, when I made that first post, I just wanted to see what would happen, I had no idea everyone had so much to say...
Last night at the firehouse was great, thanks to everyone who came up to talk to me. I wasn't sure what was going to happen, but it felt wonderful to talk to follows. I think Valerie's idea of getting dinner before the dance on Saturday is a good one. There's a really good sushi place called Sushi Deli that's close to the park, anyone up for it? I won't be online again before then, but if anyone is interested, give me a call at home, 858.275.3898 or just show up around 6ish. It is on Brodway, between 8th and 9th, and its small from the outside so don't worry if you don't see it driving by. But the sushi is good and cheap!
Kate

By Karen Taylor (Swingdoctor) on Monday, February 26, 2001 - 09:30 am: Edit

I didn't read all of this until today and I missed both the Firehouse and the dance on Saturday. BUT...this is all great stuff. I had a really hard time when I first got here too. I spent many nights at the Firehouse totally intimidated and not dancing much at all. I also found the Rocket to be an easier place to actually get to know people and spend some time talking. It was great to go to camp in Palm Springs because I met some people here...Ron, Kermit, Jeff, and Quint...and they couldn't believe I'd been in SD for so long and we'd never met. The next week they made sure I never sat down at any of the dances. It's been smooth swivels ever since. (Thanks you guys) It's hard sometimes, but you just keep showing up and slowly but surely everyone gets to know who you are and will ask you to dance...especially if you ask them too. As I've said before, I've been overwhelmed at how welcome I feel here. Something has shifted recently and I'm feeling more included then ever. This is the greatest Lindy Hop scene and I love being part of it. I missed sushi, but I too have felt it harder to meet the follows. I love the idea of getting together for tea before dancing. Is that going to happen? Count me in! By the way, does anyone else live North county coastal? Hmmm...one other thought. In SF I found that Lindy in the Park was a place I got to get to know a lot of dancers more personally. Outside, daytime events are great for casual social time. Is there any chance of getting something like that going here...it's also such a great way to expose the general public to the dance. It seems like our community is not too set in cliques, but I'm sure this discussion will do nothing but help us all make an effort to be inclusive and get to know one another better. Thanks Kate...I'm looking forward to meeting you. Will you be at the Rocket this week?

PLEASE VISIT THE NEW SWINGORAMA FORUM
GO TO SWINGORAMA.COM FOR MORE INFORMATION

Administrator's Control Panel -- Board Moderators Only
Administer Page | Delete Conversation | Close Conversation | Move Conversation

			This is a public posting area. If you do not have an account, enter your full name into the "Username" box and leave the "Password" box empty. Your e-mail address is optional.
Username:
Password:
E-mail:

Add a Message