By Laura Beth Kaplan (Vintagelbk) on Thursday, July 26, 2001 - 04:24 pm: EditNatalie, you eek of decency, which is refreshing
| By Laura Beth Kaplan (Vintagelbk) on Thursday, July 26, 2001 - 04:24 pm: Edit |
Natalie, you eek of decency, which is refreshing |
| By Franglaise (Hepnat) on Thursday, July 26, 2001 - 05:23 pm: Edit |
My mother always told me to eek as much as possible  |
| By Franglaise (Hepnat) on Thursday, July 26, 2001 - 05:26 pm: Edit |
Hang on, is it anonymity - whoops, can't spell. I _knew_ it looked wrong. |
| By HopMichael (Mhwang) on Thursday, July 26, 2001 - 05:31 pm: Edit |
Just don't eek of anonimity. -Hop "The Mouse that Roared" Michael |
| By Ron (Ron) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 10:50 am: Edit |
I disagree with Ye Dancer that people looking into the window at Claytons will go from "what is this!?" to "Wow, that's swing dancing, let's try it!" if more people wear "swingy" clothes, like khakis and nice shirts. Of course, if the female swing dancers wore the plunging neckline and slits like Natalie was talking about, they would probably say "I don't know what that is, but I want part of that!" |
| By Ron (Ron) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 11:00 am: Edit |
I've always maintained that the best way to get new swing dancers into the scene is to teach a simple, free East Coast Swing lesson first and then play very approachable music for beginners in the first hour. Neo-swingish stuff and jump blues. Stuff that is more like the music they are used to hearing, stuff where they can find the beat easily. To somehow make their first experience a good experience. To ask a beginner to appreciate and dance to a bunch of scratchy old big band songs, or some slow groovy piano jazz songs, on his or her's first night out, is like asking him or her to leave. I'll be DJing Friday and I will play very approachable music for beginners for the first hour or so, as I usually do at Claytons. |
| By CatThyme (Valorie) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 11:02 am: Edit |
I think there is an advantage to having at least some people in "regular" clothes, as people looking in from the street are more apt to think that they could join us rather than thinking that it was a private party. |
| By Franglaise (Hepnat) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 11:29 am: Edit |
Amen to Valorie |
| By Ian Campbell (Ian) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 12:02 pm: Edit |
Who said anything about scratchy old Big Band? While I agree with the free East Coast Lesson, I have specific, non-personal reasons for disagreeing with some of the other views. As far as posting by name or posting anonymously, there's nobody on this forum whose judgement is worth hiding from, unless you just intend to be hurtful. Stand behind your opinion regardless of what it is. |
| By Joe M (Joem) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 12:42 pm: Edit |
Personally, I think people notice Claytons more often when there is a special sign like SDLHS or Swingorama.com on the outside. For me that indicates that there should be some type of sign indicating that it is Lindy Hop and open to the public with dance lessons and only cost $5. Also when people, especially the ladies, are outside, it tends to attract interest. Last week Charlie Lee had a crowd watching him do his karate dance. Joe |
| By janeh on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 12:50 pm: Edit |
I don't agree with teaching beginners ECS. They want to learn what they're seeing, not ECS. Teach them the 8-count swingout, the circle, a tuck release, and a push. It's not that hard... I agree that casual, everyday clothes say to the observer "this can be done by anyone, including me" and I agree that retro dressing will attract the bystanders attention quicker and hold it longer becuase it just looks interresting. By mixing it up, as is currently the case, an overall appealing scene is created. At any venue. I agree that it would be nice to have someplace to go that more or less "demands" a dressier look becuase it's nice to dress up and go out with others doing the same thing. If I had a body that looked great with form-fitting, body-exposing apparel and 4" spike heals, you bet I'd learn to dance in it! The only dance-wear I question is what a few dancers wear that looks down right sloppy. Comfortable does't need to = sloppy. Nice doesn't need to = dressy. |
| By Andy (Hitman) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 01:35 pm: Edit |
I actually agree with teaching the ECS. Jane, you probably have the innate talent of picking up dance, because I wouldn't call learning basic Lindy easy by any stretch. Especially for us guys, who've never danced nor lead before. There's way too much to think about. ECS.. especially without the triple steps, is a great way to start having fun almost immediatly. Shucks.. it took me a couple of sessions to get the coordination down to lead and move my feet at the same time. |
| By Jane Hance (Janeh) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 02:56 pm: Edit |
Yeah, but even while they're trying to get ECS down they realize that's not what they're seeing! And then they get confused when the switch is made to Lindy. Besides, 8 count moves fit better with the music (at least to a beginner's ear). Learning any dance at the beginning is not easy, so why not start out with the dance they think they're there to learn? You can certainly introduce them to frame, connection, and stepping out rhythm, etc. by teaching basic Lindy patterns. We all know that beginners don't lead or follow anyway, they just concentrate on stepping out the patterns whether it's Lindy or ECS. I personally believe that if you teach a beginner how to hold and be held by their partner and how to move together in time to the music (basic lead/follow connection and frame) in both open and closed dance position, you don't even need to teach a specific dance and they'll be able to get out on the dance floor and have a good time. Just my opinion (that I've actually tested, I might add). |
| By Ye dancer on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 03:37 pm: Edit |
I must disagree with anyone who says the basic 8-count is easy. It is impossible to teach someone how to do it in 45 minutes to an hour. Every time I've seen a "beginning" lindy lesson at a dance, no matter how good the teacher is, the students are totally lost by the time the music starts. East Coast is much easier to pick up, and a lot more fun for first-timers. Lindy, on the other hand, takes commitment. In the same line of thought, I would like to know how many current regular social dancers got into lindy because they saw people doing it and thought, "wow, look at how they connect and carry on a conversation in dance while at the same time moving to the music!" Yeah right! Most people see it and think, "wow, that looks so cool," even though they have no idea what's really going on. Why? Because they are watching something they've probably never seen outside of television or movies. It's just like when people get married. People are almost always intially attracted to others because of WHAT THEY SEE. Then later, they get more familiar with what the other person is REALLY like, and that's when things get serious. Similarly, most people are intially attracted to lindy because of WHAT THEY SEE. They only get serious later. Thus, why not try (just every once in a while) to make ourselves LOOK a little better? For those people who've never seen "swing" dancing before, create the kind of first impression that keeps them talking and thinking about it the next day, not just for the two minutes after they walk past Clayton's. What better way to do this than to take a deep breath and put on some black and white shoes and a button up shirt? Will this lengthy treatise suddenly make you all change your viewpoint and agree with me? Somehow, I doubt it. I also doubt that anyone will be able to convince me to shed my anonymity, at least for the time being; though you might have the balls to not care what people think about you, Ian, I am a little different. My feeling, though it may be mistaken, is that there are always people whose judgement is worth hiding from. (at least until you are powerful enough to crush them . . . mwahahahahahaha!) DISCLAIMER: Interpersonal relationships are very complex. By saying that most people are attracted to others by WHAT THEY SEE, I am not referring solely to physical attraction. |
| By Spawn of Satan (Melbamoose) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 04:11 pm: Edit |
Ian, you wouldn't know anything about posting anonymously, would you? |
| By Amy Lawrence (Teacheramy) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 04:12 pm: Edit |
East Coast is far easier to learn at first. Many of us on the scene right now learned it first, and I'm sure if you asked, we'd say that we were at an advantage having learned six count first. Ye is right: in a quick 45 minute lesson, lindy is too complex. I have been teaching East Coast for four years now, and I disagree that teaching them that first will disappoint them. I think that they are going to be so excited that they have "mastered" the six count that they will want to further their knowledge. And by the way, Jane, frame, connection, and stepping out to music is used in East Coast, too! And as always, Valorie is right. You go, girl! |
| By CatThyme (Valorie) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 04:24 pm: Edit |
I am certainly all for people looking less sloppy. But I really believe that beginning dancers are apt to be intimidated if it looks like there is "required swing gear," whether that's clothes or shoes. I'd rather have beginners coming out and feeling as comfortable as possible. I'm not referring to "comfy clothes" but more as to feeling like they're not standing out. It's hard to get out there and dance when you are new and feeling like you don't fit in. Also, I think people put on a better dance presentation when they wear shoes that they can comfortably dance in, whether that's two-toned shoes, dance sneakers, or chromed tennis shoes. |
| By Franglaise (Hepnat) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 05:01 pm: Edit |
[marathon post] I'm firmly in the ECS-for-quick-freebie-lessons camp. In a 45 minute lesson you have to introduce people to not only the practice, but actually the concept of moving body parts in a certain way and a certain order, but also that of initiating the movements of another (for leads) or waiting to have your moves initaited by another (for follows). Not only are these things that alot of people will never have done before attending their first quick-freebie class, but these people won't feel they've achieved anything before they get at least an underarm turn in their repetoire of moves. You can do it in 45 mins with ECS. I'm severly skeptical of whether is can be done with lindy and total non-dancers in the same time frame. If ya want to grow the scene, I think it's gonna take more marketing oomph! than bi-colored shoes and a few button-down shirts (passerby thinks: my god, that girls wearing a multi-paneled skirt that's cut on the bias, which flares when she turns, well sod meeting Katie and Charlotte at the bitterend, getting wazzed and being chatted up by some cute guys, I'm going in here). OK, even without the ultra-sarcarm (I'm British, it's genetic), you can probably see my point. I like the idea of signs outside of Calyton's, but make them open and inviting. People don't know what lindy hop is. People _do_ know what swing dancing is. If you put up society or club names, Joe public might be lead to think that it's a private event. How about putting cute girls and guys on a couple of corners handing out flyers for that night's event, saying free lesson and map to where it is, also saying free lesson every week, same time, same place, plus web-address for Swingorama (next week, suprise her, bring her dancing and swing her off her feet (type stuff)). People walking by just aren't going to just walk in off the street, they aren't. Even if they're curious and ask what we're all doing. One thing I'm looking at doing, is teaching a 6 week course of short lessons once a week at work, during lunch break, in the run up to the company Christmas Dance (and then arrange for the DJ to play some swing music). It's still in the planning stage, but if it gets off the ground I would really look to point those interested in taking things further towards the real teachers out there, so I'd want to make that generic teacher flyer, that was put together by Chris, available. Not only new blood for the swing scene, but I'd hopefully get several partners to dance with at the company event...see, I'm just Miss Practicality. [\marathon post] |
| By Ye dancer on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 05:29 pm: Edit |
I see dressed-up beginners at Clayton's all the time, ready for a night out. They don't view dressing nice as a stigma, but rather as a fun experience, a novelty. I actually feel sorry for them, because THEY are the ones that stick out. They come to go "swing dancing" and so they think, "gee, I better LOOK like a 'real' swing dancer." But when they get to Cafe Savoy, all the "real" swing dancers look like they're ready for a night in the gym, not in the Gaslamp, San Diego's largest weekend party district. As for "dance presentation," the only people who pick up on musicality and connection are experienced dancers. The newbies only see the "jumping and jiving." p.s. I like the flyer, street corner idea. In fact, I would lend a hand, except that then I would have to reveal my carefully maintainted secret identity |
| By oopapadoo (Oopapadoo) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 05:41 pm: Edit |
Anyone in North County want to carpool with me to Claytons tonight? Shawn's sick. :-( |
| By CatThyme (Valorie) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 05:45 pm: Edit |
You wouldn't have to reveal your secret identity. Just discreetly grab some from the table. I really don't think anyone would take any more notice of you than one does when any of the rest of us grab fliers to take to people at work, school, etc. |
| By Spawn of Satan (Melbamoose) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 07:33 pm: Edit |
There is a point to be made about the clothes coming before the dance... Anyone can go buy the clothes, but it takes time to learn how to dance. People want to be a part of what we do, and they start with the clothes. They just do. Obviously not everyone, but a lot. Looks can be deceiving and I remember when I first starting dancing assuming that those who had the look down had the dance down as well. I don't know where I'm going with this other than pointing out the clothes have a LOT to do with this scene, especially with "newbies." |
| By Joe M (Joem) on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 08:30 pm: Edit |
Some very good ideas in this thread about expanding the lindy scene. What got me started, is I was at Tio Leo's one evening and saw how much fun the ladies were having. Smiling, laughing and generating more energy than any dancing I have ever experienced before. I knew that I wanted a piece of that. So I got involved in the EC, & Jitterbug dancing at several of the bars. Then one night, dancers were showing each other the Lindy Hop swingout steps. Then I took some lessons at the bar but I could not figure it out. So I searched out the Rocket and Margie, and have been doing lessons ever sense. After all of that, my point is, that people will get involved in swing when they: 1. see the kind of fun people are experiencing 2. know where to go to dance 3. decide for themselves that they want to participate in that experience. For those who are serious about really wanting to help expand the scene (talk is cheap), all you have to do is: 1. let people see the FUN they can have 2. SHARE where they can go to participate. 3. The decision part it up to the people. There are plenty of flyers and business cards that you can carry that make it easy for you to share. I always carry a card in my wallet and flyer in my car. It is amazing how often I run into people that want to go swing dancing but don't know where. Recently, a lady that I am in school with, was so excited to finally find out where to go dancing, after I gave her a Rocket business card and swingorama.com info. And this was just the result of mentioning that I was going swing dancing after class. I have done this at least three time in school. It is very easy. Clayton's has the best visibility to the target audience and we should take advantage of it. What would happen if two couples were dancing on the side walk for one or two songs? Or if four couples went down to 6 & F and just started to dance and talk to people? I'm sure there are a lot of ways we could share. What are you willing to do? Joe |
| By Ye Dancer on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 11:53 pm: Edit |
I always wished that Clayton's was deeper in the Gaslamp. We can't change that, but why not have some volunteers pass out flyers before the dancing starts. Hey, if those guys from the Lighthouse Baptist church can do it, why can't we? (my whole 'dress-up' thing wasn't necessarily about the dressing up, but about actively promoting lindy hop and "swing" dancing) |
| By Julia Hall (Whoolia) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 - 12:05 am: Edit |
Question for Nat: Whatever will you wear to that Christmas dance??? |
| By Julia Hall (Whoolia) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 - 12:19 am: Edit |
Just for the record, those of you who do like the vintage look and are thinking about dressing up a bit... Vintage clothing is often made of very movable, breathable high quality fabrics. The clothing of the mid-century was made to last, and the fashions for men and women are classic/timeless! That's why these articles are still around today! I have been collecting vintage fashion for over 15 years, and I seldom feel restrained, stymied or uncomforable in my clothing or shoes. For those of you who don't care, ignore this post! |
| By Laura Beth Kaplan (Vintagelbk) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 - 12:33 am: Edit |
I tried to go in between tonight, not too dressy, not too laid back..it wasn't vintage tho, but acceptable at a gaslamp club. So I put in my share of effort, for the record. I like dressing up and being a girly girl once in a while so this wasn't really any sort of sacrifice on my part. |
| By Spawn of Satan (Melbamoose) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 - 02:12 am: Edit |
But seriously guys...although it definitely may seem like it at times, and some of you seem to enjoy this aspect....this isn't a CULT. All this talk about recruitments and dancing on the sidewalks (like DORKS) passing out flyers....I don't know, man....these are the things that repulse me from the scene. The constant organization of events, plans, etc....sometimes this forum reminds me of a church meeting on Monday nights or something to that effect... |
| By Spawn of Satan (Melbamoose) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 - 02:14 am: Edit |
but maybe that's just me. Krista Hattemer |
| By anonymous on Saturday, July 28, 2001 - 12:59 pm: Edit |
Hi Folks, I thought I would throw in a line or two from a different angle. I am the leader of a swing band here in town, I am not going to say which one as I don't want anyone to think this is simply a pitch for us, but here are some things you may want to think about as far as growing the scene goes. First off you need to get the scene back into the more visible clubs in San Diego.Places where folks that are not in the scene may walk into and get excited about it. You need places in the heart of the city to bring in swing bands and when they do you need to pack the place. After you pack it you need to buy some drinks so the club can make some money and will continue to bring those bands back. I have heard to many times from club owners and booking managers that they can't make money with swing. They say the dancer don't drink and if they can't sell drinks they can't make money. As long as the club owners think that then you folks will be forced to dance at places off the beaten path where the ability to grow the scene is very limited. Keep in mind that for you the draw of this scene is the dance, but for the average sixpack a day Joe the draw will be fun!!! Who cares if he/she can only east coast and can't lindy!!! Hell they may not even know what swing is. But If you want them to come back so that you can teach them then they better have fun. Don't intimidate them at the door with lindy hoppers out on the street. Instead just invite them in and buy them a drink. For you it is the dance, for me it is the music. But for the average cat it is about fun. Give them that and they will keep coming back. That's my 2 cents worth |
| By Vindicator (Chris) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 - 04:24 pm: Edit |
Here, Here, this meeting will now come to order!!!! (hee, hee) Didn't make it to Claytons last night, taking care of Shana. She can't dance right now, so I laid low with her and pretty much waited on her all night. Of course I couldn't resist commenting on this thread, go figure. Claytons to me is the greatest venue we have locally! There are many reasons I think this way: 1) It is highly visable, 2) It has the most diverse music 90% of the time, 3) It has the most energy of any local venue, 4) It pulls in people that we would never see in any other local venue, 5) I actually feel like I'm going out. Before we think of "recruiting" more people to expand our scene there are some things to fix. I have been in this scene for 3 years now, and seen many highs and lows, and what seems to me to be the biggest problem with us is that we don't work together. There are too many differences amoung our group, everyone has a different opinion how to get to the same center, and NO ONE is willing to compromise. Compromising means to lose and become vulnerable in many people's eyes. Many people feel that our scene has great diversity, and that is true. Yet, that diversity really creates a problem when considering "growing the scene." Everyone knows that if a group tries to work together for something positive, it takes forever and the red tape is a mile long. Not only that, but all of a sudden that group becomes a "clique." Once that group becomes a "clique" then people get labeled and frowned on about this-that-and the other. We all know who the big leaders are here in SD, it's the instructors. Being truely American they all compete for students, and to get their style and technique to be the most popular, locally. If they didn't, they wouldn't have any students to teach. This is the bottom line, since the instructors have "their" way of doing things and "their" own vision, it is hard to work with others. It's hard because they have to compromise, and to compromise means to be vulnerable. Now my above paragraph can easily be interpreted as a direct attack, but it isn't. It's a general observation and point. In Reality most of the local instructors do support other instructors and event coordinators, by attending their venues and offering money. But when it comes down to working together to build the scene, that's when support stops. I know this because at a meeting, about a year ago, all the local promoters and instructors met and tried to work something out for the International Dance Association through the City PArks and Rec. No one could agree on a way to work together. Since then, each promoter/instructor relied on themselves and friends to help promote their stuff. I don't think anyone left that meeting with any hatred toward anbother, but an understanding that it would be very time consuming and patience bearing to work together. So here we stand today. The same discussions about dress that we had years ago, with no solutions. The same discussions about music that we had years ago, with no solutions. The same discussions about style that we had years ago, with no solutions. (kind of redundant, huh?) Here is a solution: If we really want to build this scene then we ALL (all = instructors, promoters, and dancers) have to compromise and work together. We have to make sure ALL ideas and views are considered. We have to put preferences aside and work on getting new people into the dance scene. Flooding all instructors' classes with new people, regardless of style preferences and personality conflicts. Encourage growth and diversity amoungst ALL new dancers. Introduce those new people around to veteran dancers. Play ALL types of music - from 30's swing to 50's rock n roll to 60's groovy blues to neo-swing. All veteran dancers need to come out and dance with everyone as much as they can. Instructors need to put their own visions and opinions aside and truely WANT to work together. Everyone should get involved with the scene, under one roof and work as ONE group not small groups with different aggendas. I do believe that if we take this course of action, and take advantage of the skills that our veteran dancers have (advertising, marketing, art & graphics, leadership skills, etc) we could make this city the center of the LINDY world!!! Otherwise, we'll continue with the little satelite groups that have their own aggendas, and feel that their aggenda is better than the opposing group's aggenda. They'll keep trying to under cut their opponent and get ahead - while the entire time the scene suffers. In my opinion, the biggest turn off to the potential new dancers is all the politics in our scene, and the unwillingness to want to work together. Example: a new kid shows up and wants to learn how to dance. They ask a few people where to attend lessons, they receive welcoming arms. But, the dark side is what the people tell the new kid: "Oh, you should take from that teacher," "Yeah, you could take from them, if you want to . . . (doubting their choice)." etc. And it just isn't the people they ask, but it is also the instructors encouraging the new kid not to venture out. Shana and I fell victim to this at one time, as I know several other dancers have too from different cities. This kind of thinking hurts our scene, and stuns growth. We need to start on a clean slat - tabla rasa. Put all ill feelings behind us and work toward the good. |
| By Laura Beth Kaplan (Vintagelbk) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 - 06:34 pm: Edit |
Wow, that was a really cool article, Chris. very well said. I know I've only been on the scene recently after being away a very long time, and I've already done some of the stuff you talked about. The reason is - and I'm not quite sure about this, being an ediquette thing (I know I can't spell ediquette  ) but as a follow, I don't feel comfortable asking a new guy who's a beginner whom I haven't seen before to dance. I think if he sees me on the dance floor and see's how I move and doesn't want to dance with me, he's got a good reason, so that is why I stick with certain people, Of course if I've seen the guy for a while and seen him dance than I can get an idea of who I'm dealing with and muster up some courage to ask him, but if the guy just sits and watches the whole night, who am I to spoil his fun (or know what I'm getting myself into?) Beth |
| By Vindicator (Chris) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 - 08:12 pm: Edit |
Very good points Beth. It is a bit harder for the follow to ask a new lead to dance than a lead asking a new follow to dance. That is at least based on Shana and a few other follows opinions and experiences, not that it doesn't hold true for all follows. I think the best thing is for the veteran leads to get to know the newer leads, and coach them. Obviously, coaching can and could be taken as being rude, belittling, and in other ways insulting to the new kid. What I mean by coaching is more of a welcoming and a tour of the local "ropes" so-to-speak. Not at all being pretentious or demanding, but a guide. A guide that is not waiting on them hand and foot, more like an "info desk" person. I think you get the point. The main thing is to acknowledge the new kids, and make them feel welcome - but don't be overly friendly, that usually freaks people out. |
| By Jane Hance (Janeh) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 - 11:54 am: Edit |
When I go out dancing, I want to dance. When I go to the Lindy venues I go to dance Lindy, that's why I don't bring my husband (who dances but doesn't Lindy). A couple of weeks ago I got "nabbed" by 6!!! new/less experienced (or non-Lindy) dancers one right after the other! After that I was ready to leave. All the motivation to dance had left me. I guess what I'm saying is 1. whether you're a lead or follow, it's the experienced dancer who should ask the new people, not the other way around. That way the experienced dancer's "fun night out dancing" isn't dramatically interfered with. 2. If you go to a Lindy dance and want the good dancers to dance with you, at least be trying to learn Lindy! After all, Lindy is why the good dancers are there in the first place. Duh! I also think the teachers and dance/event promoters should take more responsability for socially dancing with and entertaining the newer dancers they recruit. After all, they're the ones tring to make money off them (and I'm not at all saying making money off dance instruction/promotion is wrong or bad. I'd do it myself if I could. What a wonderful life that would be!). The teachers are the ones who need to grow the scene. The good dancers, the "cliques" will always have a place to dance becuase they won't let it die. They will find or create new places when/if the established ones fold. They don't need the beginners. It's the teachers that need the beginners. And it's the teachers that need the experienced dancers to be seen by the beginners and to draw in the beginners. That's just one of my many oppionions on the subject. And I should qualify it by saying I haven't been in a particularly good mood lately. Jane |
| By Vindicator (Chris) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 - 01:06 pm: Edit |
Oh, so right Jane. Your last sentence is right on the money. "It's the teachers that need the experienced dancers to be seen by the beginners and to draw in the beginners." If it wasn't for the experienced dancers, I really don't think the teachers could pull new students in. I mean, the people that have never seen or tried lindy see all of the experienced dancers dancing and having a good ol' time, that makes them inquisitive. In actuality the teachers need and rely on the veteran dancers, whether they believe it or not. Hence, that's why we all need to work together. |
| By Kathleen Collins (Kathy) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 - 01:41 pm: Edit |
If social dancing is about connecting -- communicating with your partner and *co-creating* an expression of the music -- then it seems to me that we *all* have a stake in expanding the community and in making people, regardless of their current skill level, feel welcomed. It's not just the teachers' responsibility, but one that we all share. The spirit of inclusion -- not the perpetuation of an insider/outsider dichotomy -- is what drew me to the lindy-hop community about six months ago, and it's what keeps me coming back and taking lessons, classes, etc.. I have encountered some of the kindest, considerate and most thoughtful people dancing, people who are taking the time to, as Chris suggested, "guide" my participation and help me learn. I hope that I can do the same for others. -- Kathy |
| By Laura Beth Kaplan (Vintagelbk) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 - 02:27 pm: Edit |
Perhapps the experience is different for new leads as opposed to new follows, but I came back on to the scene and felt MORE inclution then when I started dancing at the Rocket 2 years ago. All that was needed on my part was a strong desire to dance, (which I have in spades) and also to keep learning, to encourage me to keep coming. But I see what you're saying Chris, about the guy dancers. You want to give them that "We're here if you have questions" support that will make them that much more confident to try to learn and grow in lindy hop, and build a new crop of advanced lead dancers. Beth |
| By Ye dancer on Sunday, July 29, 2001 - 07:06 pm: Edit |
I agree with Chris. Unfortunately, one of the hardest things in the world to do is to get people to change, and folks here in San Diego are pretty well set in their ways. Oh well, I guess we should just be happy that we have as good of a scene as we do now, and hope that it won't dwindle any time soon. |
| By Vindicator (Chris) on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 09:21 am: Edit |
yeah, that will be the hardest thing - "teaching old dogs new tricks." People here in SD are set in their ways, and I'm going to bet that trying to get them see a different light will be like trying to move a mountain - next to impossible. But I still have hope . . . |
| By Franglaise (Hepnat) on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 09:35 am: Edit |
"Question for Nat: Whatever will you wear to that Christmas dance???" Why Julia, one of my formal evening dresses. Thank you for your concerned enquiry. |
| By Luis (Luisromero) on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 10:17 am: Edit |
Jane, I agree with you about the teachers. I don't agree, however, on setting rules for the beginners (such as: you are not allowed to ask more experienced dancers to dance, wait until THEY ask you). I think that a lot of the people that stuck with the scene are those who kept asking the better dancers to dance. It rarely happens that experienced leads or follows will ask the new ones for a dance. |
| By Spawn of Satan (Melbamoose) on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 12:34 pm: Edit |
Yeah, I agree with you, Luis. I was going to post the same thing the other day, but I'm too lazy. |
| By Franglaise (Hepnat) on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 12:48 pm: Edit |
I think it's particularly hard for a beginner follow to ask a good lead to dance (I know that in this day and age of supposed equality of the sexes it shouldn't matter, but society, and its perceptions, still have a little way to go). Particularly since a lot of our events are follow heavy. But, once you start asking/being asked and actually dancing, that's when people get hooked. I disagree with Jane - we do need the beginners. EVen in the short time I've been in the scene, I've seen a lot of the established dancers leave. We need new dancers to fill those holes and keep the mass critical - even before we talk about growing the scene. |
| By Ian Campbell (Ian) on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 01:21 pm: Edit |
Wouldn't it be more cost effective, from a marketing point of view, to get the established dancers back in the scene? |
| By Franglaise (Hepnat) on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 01:53 pm: Edit |
Well you could argue that the established dancers are fully aware of what the scene comprises and that despite that knowledge they are not inclined/able to come out dancing. If this is the case, then no amount of marketing will induce/enable them to come out and dance - marketing dollars down the drain. There's an interesting thread over on Yehoodi about what it takes to keep a venue going. There's a very interesting post about the business model of a bar-based venue not fitting the customer model of lindy hoppers. |
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