SwingOrama Forum

Archive through August 01, 2001

SwingOrama Forum: Swing Venues: Cafe Savoy at Claytons FRIDAY: Archive through August 01, 2001

By Ian Campbell (Ian) on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 05:10 pm: Edit

I agree it is a marketing issue. Putting aside those that are not able to make it out anymore, your mistake is in the assumption that established dancers are not coming out "despite" their knowledge of the scene, thus marketing dollars are down the drain. Its because of this knowledge that many aren't into it anymore.

The problem is branding and positioning. Because of "Swing Kids" and MTV, Swing dancing has a brand image. The early adopters (established dancers) as well as would-be newcomers identify swing with this brand. As the Groove styling took over, You all (generic you) have been attempting to reposition swing as partner connection and music interpretation. Newcomers don't know what this means. They want to learn, see, and listen to what they saw in "Swing Kids". Bring that back, and the old addage that it is cheaper to retain or bring back an existing customer is cheaper than buying a new one will prove to be true. Bring back the early adopters and they will virally market swing for you.

By TheloniousMonkey (Alreet) on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Cool thread and great ideas. Who says we're not working it out?

A note to beginning follows:
Boys had to learn how to ask girls to dance in Jr. High and now it's your turn! First, it's really not a big deal so, don't get your brow all furrowed. Second, don't overwork the willing horse. Plenty of experienced leads are willing to dance with beginners, just don't ask the same guy all the time. You'll also improve faster because (1) you'll get more variety of instruction and (2) you'll be on the floor more often because the overworked horse won't be trying to avoid you.

As a lead, I look at leading beginners as a challange and a way to improve my lead. Sure, you can do the apache into the splits with Mel, Val, Kate...., but can you do it with a beginner and make her look good? Oh yeah, and just because the follow doesn't know all your slick tricks, doesn't mean she's not completely facinating.

By Ye dancer on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 12:43 pm: Edit

One thing that will put people off for sure is guys dancing with guys. I have nothing against it, and I think it's cool (although I am definitely a sucky follow), but I guarantee that when people look into the windows of Clayton's and see two guys holding hands and gyrating their hips, they think: "What is this?! A gay club?"

I think that people who aren't familiar with the Lindy lifestyle don't understand why guys dance with guys. Even if they see that most of the people in the establishment are guy/girl couples, the guy/guy couples will definitely reduce their interest. Am I just foolish for thinking this way, or is there basis for this sentiment?

By Shawn (Adminorama) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Perhaps the guy/guy dancing should take place in back. Although if recruiting new members from the heterosexual community fails...

By Sean Peisert (Speisert) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 01:47 pm: Edit

*frustrated comment about this line of discussion and San Diego reactionary politics*

By Luis (Luisromero) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 01:57 pm: Edit

I think that if we all started to present ourselves in such a way as to fulfill public expectations, we would be very hypocritical.
So what if some people are turned off by seeing two guys or two girls dance together? Different groups of people will be turned off by different things. It could be race, clothing, sexual preferences, etc... Are we supposed to hide that to try to get them, and then once they're 'in' we would tell them there are certain little 'facts' that we hid from them? Please! Just have fun and be open minded. The scene will attract people that will be willing to accept it the way it is.

By Franglaise (Hepnat) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 02:28 pm: Edit

If they're going to be put off by two guys dancing with each other then maybe we're better off without them - sheesh.

Funny how homophobic men don't seem so repulsed by two women dancing together.

Also, would you really not go into a bar where 98% of the couples are "straight" and 2% "gay"? Exactly!

By Meeshi (Meeshi) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 02:34 pm: Edit

Ye Dancer, I agree with your assessment that men dancing together may upon superficial inspection cause some onlookers (mainly other men) to perceive Clayton's as a gay establishment (which it is by-the-way, Clayton, the owner, is gay). But I, for one, am not willing to restrict the guy/guy dancing just to appease people's homophobic fears in order to attract more people into the swing scene.

When I first talked to Clayton last year about having a swing night, one of the first questions he asked me was,

"Would you be o.k. with men dancing with men there?" (referring to he and his gay friends)

I quickly responded,

"Oh yes, of course, guys dance with guys all the time in Lindy."

It is the very open, tolerant and inclusive nature of Lindy and Lindy Hoppers that first attracted me to swing dancing, and actually keeps me in the swing scene. If some onlookers are uncomfortable with men dancing with men, then that's fine by me. I would rather them not be part of our swing scene anyway.

Oh, and one more thing, men dancing with men has not diminished the thriving swing scenes in more tolerant cities such as Seattle and San Francisco.

Nuff said.

p.s. Ye Dancer, if leads don't ask me to dance because of your statements, I will be very, very upset.

By Laura Beth Kaplan (Vintagelbk) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Do we really want people that are uncomfortable with simply seeing -no ones forcing them to participate- two guys dance, in the swing scene anyway? Who are we trying to impress?

By Ye dancer on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 04:52 pm: Edit

I doubt my rantings are going to stop any guys from asking you to dance, Meeshi. And if so, you can beat me up many times.

As for the "we're better off without them" line, that's fine if you want to feel that way. I've danced with guys before, and one day, I hope to become good enough to follow a guy (and look halfway good doing it). But I didn't start out that way. I'm not some sort of homophobic zealot, but the idea of close physical contact with another guy didn't exactly top my "to do" list.

The truth is, for many guys in our community, it takes time to get used to just seeing guys dance with guys, let alone doing it, whether the dancers involved are gay or not.

Do I think we should "hide" aspects of our dance scene? No. Do I think we should frown upon guys dancing with guys at Clayton's, or make rules about where it should be done? No.

But I do think it would be extremely foolish to shove our collective noses in the air and say, "to hell with anyone that doesn't like it!"

For those of you who go to all the workshops and dances and have fun, remember that a lot of hard work goes into our scene. And the folks who run the venues and classes, and bring in outside instructors, and hire bands will tell you that it's not sentimentality that keeps great lindy events going strong in our community, but money.

If we want to keep places like Clayton's and the Rocket, the money has to keep coming in.

And anyone who knows anything about economics knows that one of the keys to keeping money coming in is good marketing. With a business, you are either losing customers or getting new ones, there's no status quo. And my whole point in both the "dress up" discussion and the "guy/guy" discussion is that there are some things which could attract people, and some things that could scare them away from taking classes and coming to dances.

And for those few "less secure" males out there who might possibly be thinking about learning to swing dance, when they look into the window and see two guys in the front dancing, that isn't going to make them want to come back next week, free lesson or not.

By Amy Lawrence (Teacheramy) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 08:21 pm: Edit

Nicely put, Meeshi!

By Amy Lawrence (Teacheramy) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 08:35 pm: Edit

This is Matt, Amy's boyfriend. Ye dancer, quit fucking complaining about everything. If you don't like it, stop dancing. All people know how to do on this damn thing is complain about the smallest little shit out there, anonymously of course! I, like most dancers, dance because we love to dance, not to show off to people or be sensitive to those that don't dance. If people look into Claytons and like what they see, cool welcome them in. If they don't, fine, not everyone will. Dancing for me is not about what clothes I wear or the people watching. It's about the song, the person I dance with (male or female) and the people I meet. If someone feels like dressing up then let them do it. But it shouldn't be "required," "suggested at," or "recommended" for the rest of us who don't want to or feel the need to. Now shut up!

By Jane Hance (Janeh) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 08:36 pm: Edit

Guys dancing with guys, and ladies with ladies is very common in other dance communities also. A lot of newcomers think it's cool, though some are put off by it at first They start accepting it when they realize that the dancers involved are darn'd good dancers just having fun. They have to get past the "dancing is for getting dates" mentality first. The only place I've encountered actual negative feed back is at Country bars

And I do it anyway!
If anything, it grabs the attention of the by passer and holds it a bit longer.
By the way, I'm getting pretty good at leading. I'll dance with you Meeshi!

By Ye dancer on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 09:03 am: Edit

I'M NOT BLOODY COMPLAINING!!! And now that you've decided to start throwing around insults, I guess I'll be forced to stoop to your lame-brained level and call you a moronic, mudslinging, pus-faced ignoramus. If you don't like people discussing their feelings about the scene, DON'T COME ONTO THE FORUM! I fart in your general direction, Matt. Your mother was a hampster and your father smelled of elder-berries! (At least I have the brains to use real language in my ravings, and not the cop-out, middle-school cussing that you resort to)

Excuse me for caring about our scene and wanting it to grow! If you had actually taken the time read what I've been saying, you might have notice, oh foolish one, that I'm not COMPLAINING about anything, but rather DISCUSSING it. Feel free to pick up your local dictionary and learn the difference. My intent is to throw out ideas and get feedback, with the end result of getting people to think about ways to keep making San Diego a better and better place to dance in. Last time I checked, this forum is the same as Clayton's; anyone can come in, anyone can participate, and no one has to stick around if they don't want to.

Ask Jeff how Lindy by the Bay started. It didn't magically fall out of the sky, a gift from the god of Lindy, but rather was the result of a lot of discussion and hard work.

So from now on, go ahead and sit on your haunches, enjoying the scene, while the rest of us try to keep it going. And in ten years, when the rest of us have to dance in our back yards because there aren't any clubs left, and you're off doing other things because lindy hop is as popular any more, I'll come remind you of this lovely discussion. And then you can cuss at me, whereupon I will again be able to point out that your command of the English language has not yet risen past the 6th grade level.

By Shawn (Adminorama) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 09:37 am: Edit

I agree that we need to recruit more dancers to the scene as popular culture isn't helping anymore, but the occasional guy/guy dance is hardly the anchor on our group you've suggested.

I mean, what kind of image are we trying to present anyway?
RocketBombSquad

By Shawn (Adminorama) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 09:39 am: Edit

A bunch of folks dressed in a variety of styles, from classy vintage to "sweatpants chic" makes our group appear inclusive and, as it did for me, inviting.

By Franglaise (Hepnat) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 11:40 am: Edit

Ye Dancer, I personally feel that one is on iffy ground when one labels the refusal to pander to homophobia as "shov[ing] our collective noses in the air".

Hmm, calling someone pus-faced and quoting Monty-Python, very non-middle-school. Could.....not....resist.

By Ye dancer on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 12:05 pm: Edit

I'll have you know that Monty Python is sophisticated, high-class humor! ;)

And I'm not encouraging homophobia. If that's the way my comment came across, my apologies.

By HopMichael (Mhwang) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

-Hop "George" Michael

By Ron (Ron) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 01:07 pm: Edit

Steve, if you want to grow the scene, volunteer to take turns with Jeff putting on Lindy by the Bay. That's another "venue" with potential to attract people, and I'm concerned Jeff isn't going to want to do it by himself forever. Keeping that venue going could potentially have more positive impact than any of the your other suggestions on here.

I don't think the discussions on here have been complaining, by the way. Matt, chill.

By CatThyme (Valorie) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 01:13 pm: Edit

I really don't think that Ye Dancer is Steve...

By Franglaise (Hepnat) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 01:39 pm: Edit

[Devil's advocate]
Most of the passersby at LbtB are tourists and not SD residents.

[\Devil's advocate]

By Ron (Ron) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 01:53 pm: Edit

Yeah, right. He practically admitted it in the car, but he didn't tell us not to tell.

By Ryan W Enslow (Renslow) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 02:49 pm: Edit

You know I've been wrong about these before... but I don't really think it's Steve either.

At least I hope it's not, I like Steve.

Ryan W. Enslow

By I'm not running for Jesus (Dennis) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 02:51 pm: Edit

At least I hope it's not, I like Steve.

Annnnnnd... you've just proved Ye Dancer's point about wanting to stay anonymous....

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